Post Info TOPIC: The final fulfillment of the Two Witnesses will not the Old and New Testaments
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The final fulfillment of the Two Witnesses will not the Old and New Testaments
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Revelation 11:1-14

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Lets break it down verse by verse.

1. temple of God definitely means the true church that is following God, and possibly also a physical temple somewhere sometime.
2. holy city may mean Gods true people, but in the Bible, it always refers to Jerusalem the city in Israel.
3. Was the Bible only given power 1260 days/years? No. Possibly they were in sackcloth during the Dark Ages.
4. Two olive trees. Not sure, might be OT and NT, or maybe something else.
5. This is one of the 2 strongest verses showing that the two witnesses cannot be the Old and New Testaments. Did fire come out of the OT and NT during the Dark Ages and kill anyone? No.
6. This is power the 2 witnesses have. Yes, the Bible talks about these supernatural things.
7. Have the OT and NT ever finished their testimony? No. Have they ever been overcome? No.
8. Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem in Israel. Only there. This is super-clear.
9. How many people of China, Japan, Brazil, Indonesia, India etc. even heard of the French Revolution in 1798 when it was happening? Basically zero. And nobody tried to put them in graves either, so no one could have tried to prevent them from being put in graves!
10. No one except maybe inside France sent presents to each other when France officially abolished the Bible in 1798 or so.
11. The Spirit of God left the Bible for 3 1/2 years around 1798? Really?! How can any Seventh-day Adventist who professes to believe the Bible believe this?
12. The Bible did not suddenly go from being persecuted to being greatly exalted around 1798. Yes, the Bible Societies were very strong in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, but there was nothing special at that time to be specially noticed by the Bibles enemies.
13. There was no earthquake of any note in France around the 1798 time frame. There is absolutely nothing in history to point to showing that people who hated the Bible in France got really scared about seeing the Bible being exalted by God.
14. No woe has come quickly at all since 1798. It hasnt. (To be honest, none of the woes or Trumpets have had their final fulfillment yet here August, 2021.

The two witnesses cannot be the Old and New Testaments for many reasons

I call on all my fellow Seventh-day Adventists to study what you believe, to show yourself approved unto God. Please let me know in the comments what you believe the Two Witnesses to be.



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Newbie

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lets have the Bible explain it

 


Revelation 11:3 KJV

 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:6 KJV

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 KJV

 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:10 KJV

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

 



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refulgent

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Concerning the two witnesses the prophet declares further: "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."  "Thy word," said the psalmist, "is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."  Revelation 11:4; Psalm 119:105. The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament.  Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God.  Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come.  The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come in the exact manner foretold by type and prophecy.  {GC 267.1}



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webmaster

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While William Miller was not an inspired prophet, I believe his Rule #13 of interpretation is correct:

To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfilment of a prophecy. If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event. But if one word lacks a fulfilment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development. For God takes care that history and prophecy doth agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed.

While viewing the OT and NT as a "historical" type of fulfillment, we have shown conclusively from the Bible itself that the Two Witnesses' final fulfillment cannot possibly be the Old and New Testaments, as many things written about them in Revelation have never been fulfilled.

How many people were killed by fire coming out from the OT and NT between the years 538 and 1798?

How can anyone honestly say that the OT and NT didn't have any spirit of life from God in them from 1795 to 1798 (or is it 1798 to 1801?  Has anyone studied this out?)

Whose Lord was crucified outside of Jerusalem?

These are salient points that we will be called on to explain in the future, and sadly, not a single SDA, will be able to give biblical reasons for our standard, current explanation of these Bible verses.  We will be made "ashamed" before our enemies, and God's cause will be reproached.



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Jim Gurtner

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The same two who came to encourage and comfort Jesus, and who we know are alive and well in heaven today, will come again to encourage God's people in the last days: Elijah ("...that it rain not in the days of their prophecy..." REV 8:16), and Moses ("...and have power over waters to turn them to blood... REV 8:16).



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webmaster

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Jim, I believe you are half correct.

I believe this Bible verse explains clearly who both of the Two Witnesses are:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 



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Anonymous

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Jim Gurtner wrote:

The same two who came to encourage and comfort Jesus, and who we know are alive and well in heaven today, will come again to encourage God's people in the last days: Elijah ("...that it rain not in the days of their prophecy..." REV 8:16), and Moses ("...and have power over waters to turn them to blood... REV 8:16).


 Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

 

 I don't think we know yet who they will be or if there will be a resurrection of Elijah and Moses....  It may be a Elijah type or a Moses type.  Like John the Baptist was an Elijah type.



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webmaster

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Well, we know for sure that Elijah won't need to be resurrected to appear as one of the Two Witnesses.

To cause Moses to die twice would make the Bible a liar.

And for sure, God's words never, ever, die.

The Bible is quite clear who the Two Witnesses are.



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Anonymous

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webmaster wrote:

Well, we know for sure that Elijah won't need to be resurrected to appear as one of the Two Witnesses.

To cause Moses to die twice would make the Bible a liar.

And for sure, God's words never, ever, die.

The Bible is quite clear who the Two Witnesses are.


 Elijah is alive and so is Moses. 

but a type might appear. 



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webmaster

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Moses has already died once.  Nowhere do I read in the Bible that it is appointed unto man to die once (or twice) and after that the judgment.  Both of the Witnesses will be killed, and their bodies will lie in Jerusalem (which is where our Lord was crucified) for 3 1/2 days.  Then they will be resurrected.

On a side note, I've always thot that the time just before Jesus returns will be the darkest in this world's history, but read in a manuscript from 1900 from Ellen White that Enoch lived in the time when it was the worst it will ever be to develop a good character.  Those antediluvians must have been really, really wicked - like mixing humans with animals and such.



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Anonymous

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Not everyone believes that is a literal death. 



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webmaster

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OK, I understand that some things in Revelation are most likely not to be taken literally - like an actual dragon fighting a woman in the sky.

The SDA Church generally accepts that the Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments, which is symbolical.  So they say the 3 1/2 days are actually 3 1/2 years when supposedly the Bible was "dead".  However, I've never heard a good explanation from anyone to tell in what way were they dead.  The closest thing to an explanation that I've heard, is that they were abolished in France for a period of 3 1/2 years, but no one I'm aware of has attempted to show the time period was actually 3 1/2 years (or is that supposed to be just symbolic too?) and no one has ever explained to my satisfaction how it could possibly be said the Bible was "dead", when it was being highly promoted in America and the British Isles during that same time period.



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nb

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so webmaster, what do you believe to be truth?



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webmaster

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I believe that the Bible, taken literally, and spiritually, is the truth, as it speaks of Jesus, the ultimate Truth.

If you are asking just about the Two Witnesses, I believe them to be Enoch and Elijah. 

For far too long we SDAs have taken most of Revelation symbolically, and our people will be just as clueless as the Jews were in Jesus' day about the fulfilling of prophecies that will happen in rapid succession.  For example, none of the 7 Trumpets have had a complete fulfillment yet.  Especially Trumpet #5 is crystal clear to anyone reading without prejudice, that it absolutely must occur in the future, as none of the 144,000 have been sealed in their foreheads yet.



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Nb

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I understand. 

I believe it might be two prophets that have not yet be revealed. Will be alive in the end times. 



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webmaster

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So Nb, you think the Two Witnesses might be two humans who God calls at that time to deliver His message of warning?

If that is so, then what do we make of Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

?

 



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Nb

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webmaster wrote:

So Nb, you think the Two Witnesses might be two humans who God calls at that time to deliver His message of warning?

If that is so, then what do we make of Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

?

 


 Gods chosen prophets for the final conflict. 2 prophets alive and living on the earth. They will be given power to do many marvelous things. 



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