I AM NOW OF THE OPINION THAT THE TESTIMONIES WILL NOT LIVE AMONG GOD'S PEOPLE.THEY WILL BE REMOVED.I have some light on this point but cannot now give it. Said Christ, I have many things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now. [John 16:12.] {Lt16-1875.13}
If the people of God who now profess to be his peculiar treasure would obey his requirements, as specified in his word, SPECIAL TESTIMONIES would not be given to awaken them to their duty, and impress upon them their sinfulness and fearful danger in neglecting to obey the word of God. Consciences have been blunted, because light has been set aside, neglected, and despised. And GOD WILL REMOVE THEM AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE, and will deprive them of strength, and humble them. T20 46.2 (Testimony for the Church. No. 20)
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {EW 270.3}
But O, sad picture! those who do not submit to the influence of the Holy Spirit soon lose the blessings received when they acknowledged the truth as from Heaven. They fall into a cold, spiritless formality; they lose their interest in perishing souls: they have "left their first love." And Christ says unto them, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." He will take his Holy Spirit from the church, and give it to others who will appreciate it. {RH, July 16, 1895 par. 11}
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {EW 270.3}
It doesn't apply to us because we are the remnant who keeps the commandments and has the testimony, right? At least in our official statements. And, if we are that remnant, we cannot be Laodicea. The two are mutually exclusive. It's an either/or thing ...
Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out -- the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. {12MR 324.3}
What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation? Those who are uniting with the world are receiving the worldly mold and preparing for the mark of the beast. Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}
Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God -- candidates for heaven. Go forward, my brethren and sisters. I can only write briefly upon these points at this time, merely calling your attention to the necessity of preparation. Search the Scriptures for yourselves, that you may understand the fearful solemnity of the present hour. {5T 216.2}
"13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, Rev. 12:17, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire to be a member of this local assembly of the world church?"
This is one of the baptismal vows the candidates are required to take before joining the church. Do you agree with that?
"13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, Rev. 12:17, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire to be a member of this local assembly of the world church?"
This is one of the baptismal vows the candidates are required to take before joining the church. Do you agree with that?
I believe that not all church members will go through. But I now believe it will be a remnant of the remnant that will go through and be purified.
"13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, Rev. 12:17, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire to be a member of this local assembly of the world church?"
This is one of the baptismal vows the candidates are required to take before joining the church. Do you agree with that?
I believe that not all church members will go through. But I now believe it will be a remnant of the remnant that will go through and be purified.
Ok, I understand that. But why not "Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Laodicea ?"
I believe also that there will be a remnant, a visible one. During Elijah there was one which was not organized into a body of believers. I personally think that there must be such a one in our days. And we have this promise:
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people (Is. 11:11).
So, there was a remnant in 1844 which came out of Babylon, as it was in Ezra's days. But when John the Baptist came the people of Israel dwelling in the promised land were not a remnant anymore. But God had a remnant still, as Paul the apostle tells us.
So God is going to recover His scattered remnant the second time after 1843-44. Are we going to be part of the process if we reject the counsel of the True Witness?
I am not entirely sure if I'm understanding this discussion. But I thought I would pass along a few comments and quotes that I have found helpful.
In the first place, it's quite possible for a specific church like the SDA Church to start out pure, and then be corrupted, and then return to its original roots. The first quote below mentions this, and I already posted this quote above.
If we think about ancient Israel, its church started out pure, and then became corrupt. The Gospels reveal this corruption in many verses. The fact that the church was corrupt in Christ's day doesn't prove that there was anything wrong with the original form of the church.
To this end, the second quote below talks about the original pillars of the SDA Church, and I think this type of statement is very valuable in helping us focus on what's really important today.
As far as personal purification and sealing go, we don't have to wait for the church or other people. We know what this process entails, and we have abundant counsel on this matter. The third quote below is an example.
(1)
Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out -- the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. {12MR 324.3}
(2)
The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels' messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, "The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law. The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks. All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary. {CW 30.2}
(3)
What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation? Those who are uniting with the world are receiving the worldly mold and preparing for the mark of the beast. Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}
Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God -- candidates for heaven. Go forward, my brethren and sisters. I can only write briefly upon these points at this time, merely calling your attention to the necessity of preparation. Search the Scriptures for yourselves, that you may understand the fearful solemnity of the present hour. {5T 216.2}
Zafer: Yes, we are Laodicea BUT we can buy gold tried in the fire, the robe of righteousness and the eyesalve... there is hope but it takes our whole heart surrendered...
I am not entirely sure if I'm understanding this discussion.
Discussion is about removing the testimonies from the people. Interestingly enough, you bought up the EW 270.3 quote about disregarding the testimony of the True Witness, which was entirely appropriate in my view.
I guess that this disregarding of the counsel from heaven must have had some consequences. Just think about the king Saul! Well, ultimately he sought counsel desperately and he received it from the prophet. Apparently!
Zafer: Yes, we are Laodicea BUT we can buy gold tried in the fire, the robe of righteousness and the eyesalve... there is hope but it takes our whole heart surrendered...
I don't want to be mean or anything of that sort, but of what avail it is to take the most penitent attitude you can imagine and cry out to God and so on as long as we declare the True Witness who has those remedies a liar? He tells us that we are blind, but we believe ourselves to be the guide of the blinds. He tells us that we are naked, but we declare that we are the remnant which keeps the commandments. Laodicea likes to assume the identifying marks of the remnant, but it does not have them. She thinks that she keeps the commandments while it transgresses them on every side; and she thinks herself as having the testimony of Jesus, but it has them as much as she keeps the commandments.
Zafer: Yes, we are Laodicea BUT we can buy gold tried in the fire, the robe of righteousness and the eyesalve... there is hope but it takes our whole heart surrendered...
I don't want to be mean or anything of that sort, but of what avail it is to take the most penitent attitude you can imagine and cry out to God and so on as long as we declare the True Witness who has those remedies a liar? He tells us that we are blind, but we believe ourselves to be the guide of the blinds. He tells us that we are naked, but we declare that we are the remnant which keeps the commandments. Laodicea likes to assume the identifying marks of the remnant, but it does not have them. She thinks that she keeps the commandments while it transgresses them on every side; and she thinks herself as having the testimony of Jesus, but it has them as much as she keeps the commandments.
What you say is true of Laodicea. BUT dont forget, Jesus says theres a remedy. Pray for the gold the robe and eyesalve. ONLY when we have those elements will we be free and live the life of Liberty in Christ Jesus.
I have been reflecting on the recent postings in this thread, and wish to make a comment.
It's very true that there are serious problems with the corporate church, and many of the comments above are entirely accurate.
But this fact doesn't have to affect us individually. I personally have been aware of this reality for a long time, but knowing all this doesn't have any effect on my personal study, except to spur me on.
As an example of this, I have spent a lot of time over the years in looking at areas like the sealing, character perfection, the 144,000, and so on, and have learned a great deal in the process. These are very rich themes, and learning of them has had a life-transforming effect on me.
I do believe that the church will ultimately triumph, but for this to occur, there first needs to be a critical mass of individuals who are fully committed to the great truths we have been given.
There are multiple stories in the Bible where the Lord was able to do a great work through a very small number of completely committed individuals.
I have been reflecting on the recent postings in this thread, and wish to make a comment. []
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! It was not my intention to tell or suggest people what to do (like leaving the church or something like that) in starting this thread. If my memory does not mislead me, my first object was to see how other people look at the quotes in the introductory post. But if the postings that followed caused anybody to reflect on things, for me sounds like a positive outcome. May God grant us wisdom and guide us personally in these difficult and confusing times!
