"I'm going to risk that isn't true, if you're going to risk that it is."
This quote I took from an interview and I think it could be a good deal for anyone who accepts to take part in this discussion in a honest and non-sectarian way. And, to illustrate how sectarian we can be, I will tell what happened during the Sabbath School at a small sda gathering. Among the attendants there was an old beady man from a non-sda feast keeping church. He started to bring objections to at least one of our positions. I will use my words, but the idea was that the antitypical Passover was one day (the day of crucifixion) and why do we claim that the antitypical day of atonement is a period stretching over of a period of more than 150 years, which started in 1844 and nobody is able to tell when it will end. Well, this old man was simply disregarded to say the least. In fact I even saw and heard expressions of contempt from the "smart guy" who was there, leading the discussions. Others also switched quickly to "sister White said" and than things continued the usual way. After a while the old man left, probably seeing how hopeless we are. I doubt he did ever step back into an sda church. And I doubt that anyone cared at least when he got back home to take his Bible and check if there are any answers there to such simple questions.
Now, the topic of this thread is about the day of atonement and 2300 of Dan. 8:14. We can start with the question: When is the beginning of the 2300? We will see were it will lead from here. If we have the same attitude as those in the small gathering I was talking about not very far I guess.
[12] Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace , and at such a time.
[13] I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Well, the fifth month it's in the summer, usually July or August. Besides this, another problem with fixing the date when Artarxerxe's decree went into effect as the beginning of 2300 is that, while Dan. 9:25 speaks of the building again of Jerusalem, there is not one word about that in the decree.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
The word translated as commandment here in Dan. 9:25 is different than the word translated as decree in Ezra 7:13. The Hebrew word in Dan. 9 is dabar which has a larger meaning. It appears meany times in the OT and can be translated as word (in fact some translations do that). I didn't go through all the instances where the word dabar is used but I'm not aware to refer somewhere to a royal edict. And I believe that the Bible is consistent enough with itself. For this reason, if Dan. 9:25 wanted to make reference to the decree of Artaxerxes, we should expect to find there the same word as in Ezra 7:13. All the more so as the original word for decree in Ezra 7 appears several times in Dan. 3, 4 and 6.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
The word translated as commandment here in Dan. 9:25 is different than the word translated as decree in Ezra 7:13. The Hebrew word in Dan. 9 is dabar which has a larger meaning. It appears meany times in the OT and can be translated as word (in fact some translations do that). I didn't go through all the instances where the word dabar is used but I'm not aware to refer somewhere to a royal edict. And I believe that the Bible is consistent enough with itself. For this reason, if Dan. 9:25 wanted to make reference to the decree of Artaxerxes, we should expect to find there the same word as in Ezra 7:13. All the more so as the original word for decree in Ezra 7 appears several times in Dan. 3, 4 and 6.
look at the bolded words in the Greek word dabar
daw-bawr'
From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: - act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree,deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
The word translated as commandment here in Dan. 9:25 is different than the word translated as decree in Ezra 7:13. The Hebrew word in Dan. 9 is dabar which has a larger meaning. It appears meany times in the OT and can be translated as word (in fact some translations do that). I didn't go through all the instances where the word dabar is used but I'm not aware to refer somewhere to a royal edict. And I believe that the Bible is consistent enough with itself. For this reason, if Dan. 9:25 wanted to make reference to the decree of Artaxerxes, we should expect to find there the same word as in Ezra 7:13. All the more so as the original word for decree in Ezra 7 appears several times in Dan. 3, 4 and 6.
look at the bolded words in the Greek word dabar
daw-bawr'
From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: - act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree,deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.
Hi Anonymous! For me the Bible is its own dictionary, so I don't need those man-made ones. The word "dabar" is used 1439 times in the OT. After going through all of these 1290 verses where the word appears, I found out that there are only few instances in the book of Esther where the Hebrew "dabar" has some connection with a decree issued by an earthly monarch. Each time there it is not just used simply the word "dabar", but something to specify what kind of "dabar" it is. In 1:19 we have the adjective "royal" added to it, so we have the royal commandment (dabar). Than it tells the way this royal commandment/word was going to become a decree: let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes ... In 2:8, 3:15, 4:3, 8:17 and 9:1 to king's commandment (dabar) is added and his/the decree.
So, yes, the word (dabar) of an autocratic ruler (as the kings of Persia were) can become a decree. But the 6 instances mentioned out of a total of 1439 where the word "dabar" is used doesn't give any solid ground to the theory that Dan. 9:25 refers directly to the decree of Artaxerxes. On the contrary, there is nothing to suggest that in Daniel 9, while in the book of Esther it is very specific that we are dealing with the word (dabar) of the king and that word has become a decree.
In fact, the very nature of laws of the Persians and the Medes doesn't grant the possibility that in Dan. 9 is mentioned any of the decrees issued by the Persian monarchs. There were a series of such decrees and there is no contradiction between them, because these laws were not to be altered. The one issued by Cyrus was to give the Jews the possibility to return and rebuild the temple. The one mentioned in Ezra 4 was to prohibit the Jews to rebuild the city (Jerusalem). Than, the one issued by Darius, was to reinforce Cyrus's decree. After that the temple was completed, before the decree of Artaxerxes, which was meant to give Ezra the legitimacy and means to restore the worship of the true God in Jerusalem. So, yes, this last decree had a lot to do with restoring Jerusalem as a center of Jehovah's religion, but mentioned nothing about rebuilding the city, because otherwise it would have contradicted what was enforced through the one mentioned in chapter 4.
The book of Esther also shows how the laws of the Persians and the Medes which cannot be altered can still be somehow reversed. A law issued with the purpose of exterminating the Jews was reversed through another law issued under the authority of the same king, allowing the Jews to defend themselves. Now, in the book of Ezra, we have in chapter 4 the royal decree which permitted the Samaritans to stop to work of rebuilding the city. It might have been the purpose of the king in Ezra's time to reverse that, but he could not simply cancel that old decree. He gave Ezra and than Nehemiah the authority to do that, to the greatest extend he could do it, without breaking the principle of the laws of the Persians and the Medes.
In fact, in the Hebrew TANAKH (OT) Ezra and Nehemiah form only one book. In it it is described both how Jerusalem was restored and rebuild. It was done in troublous times, exactly as Dan. 9:25 mentions. But what is the starting point of these 7 weeks of restoring and rebuilding? In the first month of the 7th year of Artaxerxes he started his journey to Jerusalem with this very same purpose. In the fifth month he arrives in this desolate city. At that time, until it was repopulated through Nehemiah reforms, the only time when the Jews were gathered in Jerusalem in a significant number was during the feasts. The next ones were during the 7th month. According to my understanding, the 7th month in the Jewish calendar is the beginning of a new civil year (which is different that the religious one). That would mean that the 7th Jewish month of 457 BCE is already the 8th year of Artaxerxes and this can be another problem with our traditional interpretation. But, nevertheless, this 7th month of 457 is the time of the going forth (proclamation) of the word (dabar) that Jerusalem should be restored and rebuild. Artaxerxes's decree served somehow as a platform and prepared the way for this, but in itself is not the starting point. The staring point of both the 70 weeks of Dan. 9 and 2300 of Dan. 8 is the day of atonement of 457 which was announced with the sound of the trumpets in the first day of the 7th month.
Since the 2300 evening-morning prophecy ended on the Day of Atonement - October 22, 1844, it must have begun on a Day of Atonement in 457BC.
I'm all on your side with this. Here we are not dealing with guesswork. There is a solid biblical principle to support that:
And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt. (Exodus 12:41)
Thank you Nb, I think that this is the right think to do. It would have been sad to hear from you that you simply accept what I say without any critical judgment. It is important to do this all the more so because the implications involved are tremendous.
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