nb wrote:

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Zafer these are great quotes and proves that 'stuff' was going on...  there will be consequences for what those men have done as much of the debates that we have today are fostered from these changes....  

Unfortunately there are many today that do not want to see the proof of what has happened...  1 out of 9 that I speak to are interested in knowing more... the same percentage is true for our health message unfortunately... I wonder if there is a connection?

Are you indicating that it was possible these men put in the references to the revised standard version?  I would say that MOST of her references to the bible are from the KJV... about 95%.  But I have found changes in the RSV that did not agree with original SOP so that makes me suspicious.

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Now what does Satan propose to do? He proposes that he is capable of changing this Bible. These parties that fell understand all about heaven, and that they can bring in the different sentiments from the Bible, and they are going to have a revision of it. You will see they will make revisions of the Bible, but every one of us needs to stand intelligently on the Word. We cannot afford to be careless, but we must have that simplicity of godliness that is a virtue to us. We must have it. {Ms80-1910}

Men act as thou they had been given special liberty to cancel the decisions of God. The higher criticize put themselves in the place of God, and review the Word of God, revising or endorsing it. In this way all nations are induced to drink the wine of the fornication of Babylon. These higher critics have fixed things to suit the popular heresies of these last days. If they cannot subvert and misapply the Word of God, if they cannot bond it to human practices, they break it. {Lt48-1897}

The 95% was Wilkinson's evaluation as well:

In the Index to the writings of Mrs. E G White, I find that in 28 volumes of her works that are listed that she is credited with making 15,117 references to the Bible. Of these more than 95 out of every 100 are from the AV ("Answers to Objections", Section 4, p.9)

But, in the light of the SoP quotes above, the 5% of revised versions (it's RV - RSV came later) shouldn't be there. If that is the case, how did the RV get into the books? Here is the way H.H. Meyers explains it in his book "The Dismantling of Seventh-day Adventism":

It is pertinent to note that at this time Dr Wilkinson was probably unaware of Willie White's statement about other people instigating his mother's use of the revised versions as recorded in "Problems in Translation". This book was not published until the year 1954 (See Chapter Five). Nor does he give any evidence of awareness of certain of the leaders propensities to fiddle with her writings.

According to Valentine, who bases his information on a letter written by A 0 Tait, editor of the "Signs", to W A Spicer (November 25, 1929), it seems that revised versions had been inserted in some of her writings without permission. According to Tait, he had personally heard G B Starr tell of an alleged conversation with Sister White on the matter of her use of the Revised Version. She is recorded as saying that she would like to know who was responsible for the Revised Versions being used in her later writings. And again, she had never given authority for anything of that sort ("The Shaping of Adventism", p.270).

Although this is not first hand evidence, extra credibility is given to this story by virtue of the fact that Tait was all for the revised versions, hence it would not be to his advantage to relate this incident to Starr who looked upon the RV unfavourably. (page 23).

It would be interesting if someone has "The Shaping of Adventism" to check this information.

webmaster wrote:

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While I'm not a "KJV only" believer, I do believe it is one of the most faithful translations, based on the mainly correct Textus Receptus.

Personally, I believe that the Majority Manuscript is the most faithful to the originals.

While I know of the ALT New Testament translated from the Majority Manuscripts, I don't know of a whole Bible based on the Majority Manuscripts.

Does anyone?

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Terms like "Majority Text" and "Textus Receptus" and "Byzantine text type" typically refer to the NT.

The ALT NT is based on the Majority Text, as is the Modern Literal Version (available free for e-Sword).

The ALT OT is based on the LXX (Septuagint).  I couldn't find an exact statement for the MLV OT, but I believe that the choices here are pretty limited -- Masoretic and LXX.

You can find various articles that suggest that the LXX was the common Bible of Christ's day.

Thank you very much Vigilantus for news on the Analytical-Literal Translation Old Testament being available now!  I used to be on that translator's email list, and knew that he was dreading the long task of learning Hebrew, and then trying to translate it.  I see he went for the much quicker route of just translating from the Greek translation of the Hebrew.  While I think that is mostly very good, one has to be cautious, as the possibility of error creeps up dramatically when one is translating from a translation of the original.  Of course the Holy Spirit can keep his words pure, so I'm not saying that there are mistakes in it.

Zafer, I'll check out that link this Sabbath.

God bless as we lift up his words in this increasingly faithless age, and may we have the resolve to follow what those words say, and pass them on to others.

Good to hear from you Zafer. 

If I cannot trust my kjv bible as the Word of God then what can we trust?

A friend of mine showed me a Spanish bible that had been in his family for several generations. I asked him what specific texts meant and it was the closest to kjv that I have ever heard concerning Spanish bibles of recent origin. 

people are misunderstanding important truths because the translations differ

it is the cause of much debate 

refulgent wrote:

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The apostles, as personated by these lying spirits, are made to contradict what they wrote at the dictation of the Holy Spirit when on earth.  They deny the divine origin of the Bible, and thus tear away the foundation of the Christian's hope and put out the light that reveals the way to heaven.  Satan is making the world believe that the Bible is a mere fiction, or at least a book suited to the infancy of the race, but now to be lightly regarded, or cast aside as obsolete.  And to take the place of the word of God he holds out spiritual manifestations.  Here is a channel wholly under his control; by this means he can make the world believe what he will. The Book that is to judge him and his followers he puts in the shade, just where he wants it; the Saviour of the world he makes to be no more than a common man.  And as the Roman guard that watched the tomb of Jesus spread the lying report which the priests and elders put into their mouths to disprove His resurrection, so do the believers in spiritual manifestations try to make it appear that there is nothing miraculous in the circumstances of our Saviour's life.  After thus seeking to put Jesus in the background, they call attention to their own miracles, declaring that these far exceed the works of Christ.  {GC 557.1}

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 Wow, great! I didn't know that the "dictation of the Holy Spirit" survived up until the 1911 edition.  

zafer wrote:

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"BUT THESE SPIRITS TEACH THAT THE SACRED VOLUME IS IMPERFECT, AND THAT THEY HAVE COME TO CORRECT ITS ERRORS. That it is quite out of date, its light being eclipsed by the glory of these communications from the spirit world. The truth is, that the bible doctrine of life and immortality alone through Jesus Christ, and that conditional, is perfectly destructive of their whole philosophy; therefore, they declare that the Bible is not purely the word of God, what it is supposed to be. This scheme of Satan to deceive the world is wholly dependent on the doctrine that all men have immortality, and that the dead have knowledge." (JAMES WHITE: The Signs of the Times Showing that the Second Coming of Christ is at the Doors, emphasis added)

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Few words about this book: Published in 1853, an important section of it devoted to the delusion of spiritualism as a sign of the end. This is also suggested by its subtitle: Spirit Manifestations, A Foretold Sign that the Day of God's Wrath Hassteth Greatly. It contains the most detailed account of the spiritual phenomenon that began in the March of 1848 in Fox's home that I have ever read. As you might know, the mysterious knockings that were heard by his daughters became an intelligible method of receiving answers from "the other world". Because these spirits were responding by knocking when they were asked questions. These events aroused wide interest, and spiritualism thus spread with astonishing speed in America, drawing attention even overseas.

Now, there is an important part of the story that J. White missed as he might not have known: in 1851, a group of students including B.F. Westcott together with F.J. Anthony Hort formed a club inside the Cambridge campus whose stated purpose was to study these paranormal manifestations (Ghostlie Guild). Also, in the year when the book was published (1853), the two secretly agreed on a plan to revise the Greek New Testament. But, while they kept quiet about the details of their involvement in Ghostlie Guild society, in J. White's book you can find out what the spirits were actually teaching about the Bible. The part of the paragraph that I quoted actually introduces an account containing what a medium declared that "the spirit of St. Paul" had to say about the holy book and then, the communication from "the spirit of Wesley" which was received in the same manner.

Thank you for the quote from the James White book of 1853, zafer.

So many, even in our SDA Church, deny that the words in the Bible are from God.

That is very important to have the pure words of God!

Nb wrote:

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People need to listen to the link you provided Zafer!!  It still works. 

since Satan couldnt keep bibles away from people anymore he had to develop another plan

that plan is to change the word of God so people are confused 

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The link to Bridge to Babylon video documentary, right? Yes, I agree! Unfortunately within SDA circles it's hard to find such valuable information. Conservatives who try to defend KJV somehow are usually inconsistent because they try to defend with the same breath the SoP counterfeit and, as Webmaster said, are saying that words are not inspired.

Yes, whatever Satan cannot destroy, he will counterfeit. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox celebrate Constantine the Great and what he did as a big victory when, in fact, was a big defeat for the genuine Church. Likewise, the great variety of Bibles that are freely available is considered a victory when, in fact, is a sad defeat. Christianity received a strong delusion, giving up the truth (the Word of God) and accepting a lie in exchange.  

Thank you for expressing your views on the subject and quotes

I agree that God had to give the Bible in the format that man could understand. 

Nb wrote:

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I agree that God had to give the Bible in the format that man could understand. 

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 This is a good place where to start from! Hopefully, this point at least is one where we can all agree :)

refulgent wrote:

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zafer wrote:

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 Hi, refulgent! One thing that I find interesting is that it was you who also quoted from GC where it says that the apostles wrote at the dictation of the Holy Spirit. What did the Holy Spirit actually dictate?

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If you look at the second paragraph of the quote I posted, it says that humans are "imbued with thoughts", and this seems like a good way of stating it.

I write spiritual essays on a monthly basis.  Before I write the actual essay, I pray about it for several days, and collect notes and Bible and Spirit of Prophecy material on the subject that I'm writing about.

Then I sit down and write the actual essay, and while doing so, have a strong impression of the Holy Spirit guiding my thoughts.  I do not look to the Spirit to dictate my words.

 

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 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD SPAKE BY ME, and HIS WORD WAS IN MY TONGUE." (2 Samuel 23:2) 

So you think that the Holy Spirit dictated the thoughts ... But the Bible says that God's thoughts are unsearchable. Wouldn't make much more sense to interpret the "dictation of the Holy Spirit" by Bible verses such as 2Sam. 23:2; Jer. 1:9; Num. 23:5, 16; Acts 7:38; Rom. 3:2; 1Thes. 2:13; 1Cor. 2:13; 1Chron. 25:5; Deut. 18:18; John 3:34; 12:49; 14:10, 24; Is. 51:16; 59:21; 1Kings 17:24; Rev. 19:9?   

refulgent wrote:

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zafer wrote:

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 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD SPAKE BY ME, and HIS WORD WAS IN MY TONGUE." (2 Samuel 23:2) 

So you think that the Holy Spirit dictated the thoughts ... But the Bible says that God's thoughts are unsearchable. Wouldn't make much more sense to interpret the "dictation of the Holy Spirit" by Bible verses such as 2Sam. 23:2; Jer. 1:9; Num. 23:5, 16; Acts 7:38; Rom. 3:2; 1Thes. 2:13; 1Cor. 2:13; 1Chron. 25:5; Deut. 18:18; John 3:34; 12:49; 14:10, 24; Is. 51:16; 59:21; 1Kings 17:24; Rev. 19:9?   

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Hi Zafer, I would again say that it pays to be cautious in how we interpret these statements.

For example, the Bible speaks of hiding God's words in our hearts (Psalm 119:11), and eating God's words (Jeremiah 15:16).  If we apply the use of "words" too literally, then these verses become meaningless.

With regard to God's thoughts being unsearchable, I did a comprehensive search of the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, and don't know what you are referring to.  The closest I found is Romans 11:33, that says that God's judgments are unsearchable.

If we say that God's thoughts are unsearchable, and apply this statement too literally, then this would imply that all divine-human communication breaks down.

I would suggest taking a comprehensive look at all the inspired material we possibly can, and see if we can come up with a model that covers all the bases.

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 "The WORD" is something spiritual. In the Bible "the heart" is also something spiritual. For this reason, it can deposit inside spiritual things such as THOUGHTS (see Psalms 33:11; Genesis 6:5; Deuteronomy 15:9; Judges 5:15; Esther 6:6; Job 17:11; Jeremiah 23:20; Daniel 2:30; Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:21; Luke 2:35; 5:22; 24:38; Acts 8:22 By the way: Why is it not speaking of hiding Gods thoughts in our hearts?)

The fact that I don't go to human dictionaries to tell me what the heart is, doesn't mean that I am not to take the Bible in its literal sense. Yes, because I take the Scripture as its own dictionary, I have no problem in accepting that in the heart can deposit a spiritual thing such as THE WORD. It is not meaningless, it is THE MOST MEANINGFUL thing. It is a matter of life and death! 

People can imagine all kinds of difficulties in accepting even the plainest statements of the Scriptures. They can try to go further and use such imagined difficulties in order to twist their meaning. But I wouldn't put my trust in their craftiness, I would rather accept what God tells me in His Word. When He tells me that His word was in the tongue of the prophet, I am not going to say that He doesn't mean what He said. If He wanted to say that His thoughts were in the mind of the prophet, why didn't He just say that? Did He want to convey a hidden meaning to His statements so that only initiates could understand Him?

If we are to get into the Adventist history, I also have some quotes to share:

Charles Fitch

God as it is, and needs no alterations and emendations from men, as though they could tell what God means, better than He has been able to express it in his own language. He has sworn with an oath that he would raise up the seed of David to sit on David's throne; and the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever!   {1843 CF, CHMP 20.1}

William E. Foy

That God does manifest himself in visions to his children, the records of every age, do abundantly testify. And on this point, the Bible is clear and positive. The patriarchs and Prophets were shown the great and mighty events, that were yet in distant future,, by the agency of visions. But it is often asked if the method of revealing the events, and scenes the awakening of sinners, reclaiming of backsliders, and the building up of the saints in the most holy faith. They are published as nearly as possible in his own language. There is a most beautiful resemblance in the views here given, with the visions of Ezekiel, Daniel and John. As for instance; the description of the "tall and mighty angel," and "the sea of glass."{1845 WEF, CEWF 5.2}

THE REVIEW AND HERALD, September 4, 1855 (James S. White?)

THE grand rule of interpreting, or explaining the Bible, is, to let the Bible mean as it says. It is a revelation from God, designed for the use of all classes of people. It would be an impeachment of the divine wisdom, to suppose the meaning of any part of it to be so dark and obscure, as not to be adapted to answer the end for which the Holy Spirit dictated it to the inspired penman. Timothy, from a child, had known the holy Scriptures; and why should it be supposed that other young persons should not be able to know them as well as he? To ascertain what any passage says, consider what the words mean, according to their common acceptation, and according to their usage elsewhere in the Scriptures; if they have more meanings than one, consider their connection and subject of discourse; and then conclude that the plainest and most obvious sense of the words, when used in such a connection and on such a subject, is most likely to be the true sense in the passage before you.

J. N. Andrews

3. But, says one, do you not think that it would be safe to believe what those have said who conversed with the apostles, or at least, conversed with some who had conversed with them? If such should tell us that the Sabbath of the Lord was changed, would it not be safe to receive their testimony? We answer, that the holy Scriptures come to us with the divine guarantee that every word therein contained was divinely inspired. The tradition of the elders comes to us without a particle of such testimony. Wherefore if follows that the man who fears God will not reject that which he knows came from heaven, for the sake of following that which directly contradicts it, and which by that fact is proved to have come from the great enemy of divine truth. {1855 JNA, FDNS 21.3}

E. J. Waggoner

The Scriptures the Word of God.-Since the Scriptures are God-breathed, they are the Word of God. This is what they claim to be. To Jeremiah the Lord said, "Behold, I have put My words in thy mouth." Jer. i. 9. God said, "He that hath My word, let him speak My word faithfully." Jer. xxiii. 28. To Ezekiel He said, "Thou shalt speak My words unto them." Eze. ii. 7. Again, "Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with My words unto them." Eze. iii. 4. And over and over we find this statement in the prophets, "The word of the Lord came unto me;" "The word which the Lord spake by" this or that one. David, the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, "The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and His word was in my tongue." 2 Sam. xxiii. 2. Paul thanked God that the Thessalonian brethren received the word which he spoke to them, "not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God." 2 Thess. ii. 13. Again he wrote, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." 1 Cor. xiv. 37. David said to the Lord, "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Ps. cxix. 105. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against Thee." Verse 11. But time and space would fail to repeat all the instances in which the Holy Scriptures are declared to be the Word of God. That is the claim that they make for themselves. Just as surely as they are true, so surely are they the Word of God. {October 24, 1895 EJW, PTUK 674.2}

A.T. Jones

The Holy Ghost Speaketh .-"The Holy Ghost saith, To-day if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." These words are found in the ninety-fifth Psalm, which was written by a man; yet the man is ignored altogether, and they are credited solely to the Holy Ghost. This shows how the Scriptures are to be regarded: "Not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the Word of God." 1 Thess. ii. 13. When a man is wholly passive in the hands of God, as an instrument of righteousness, it is no longer he that speaks, but the Spirit of his Father that is in him. When the will of God is fully done in a man, even as it is done in heaven, the word that he speaks is not "by the will of man," but he speaks as he is "moved by the Holy Ghost." He is then but the voice of God, like John in the wilderness. So, though God speaks through many mouths, there is but one voice. Thus we read of the promise of restoration; "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." Acts iii. 21. {March 12, 1903 EJW, PTUK 163.1}

2 Peter 3:1-7: "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance; that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets." Mindful of what? The words which were spoken before by the holy prophets. Why are we to remember them? Because He wants us to find out what those words are worth, and, remembering the words, to obtain in our minds, in our lives, the strength and the force of the words. Because the words which were spoken by the prophets were the words of God, which they spake by "the Spirit of Christ which was in them, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow." {March 1, 1893 ATJ, GCDB 441.2}

We have a message to the world now, just as important as that of the disciples then. And our position is not the right one until we find such a connection with God that when we do speak the truth, wherever we go, and tell the people the message that he has now given us to tell, the Spirit of God will be there to witness to the people that that is so, and say to them, That is right, and that man is speaking the truth. All that we can do is to tell the message to the people. We cannot bring them out, and God will not bring them out by force. He wins men by telling them that is right, and making his goodness pass before them. And this God will do when the human instrument by which he works stands so related to him that his Spirit can speak in the words, in order that in the human words the people shall hear the "voice from heaven."   {February 13, 1895 N/A, GCB 128.2} 

Did those who rejected the Bible to manipulate testimonies and reject the 1888 message repent? Look what EGW wrote to Smith 10 years later:

Yet with the living oracles before them, those who claim to preach the Word present the suppositions of human minds, the maxims and commandments of men. They make void the law of God by their traditions. The sophistry in regard to the world being created in an indefinite period of time is one of Satans falsehoods. God speaks to the human family in language they can comprehend. He does not leave the matter so indefinite that human beings can handle it according to their theories. When the Lord declares that He made the world in six days and rested on the seventh day He means the day of twenty four hours, which He has marked off by the rising and setting of the sun. {Lt31-1898}

Will you turn from a plain Thus saith the Lord, after reading the history of Adams sin and fall? He fell because he discarded the words of the Lord, and heeded the words of Satan. Will it pay to transgress? By transgression Adam lost Eden. By the transgression of Gods commandments man will lose heaven, and an eternity of bliss. These are no idle tales, but truth. Again I ask, On which side are you standing? If the Lord be God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him. {Lt31-1898}

After another 5 years, the Review was visited by the judgments of God, and U. Smith died the same year (1903) while walking to the publishing office where he was "in charge" for almost half a century. Writing to Butler in the same year, EGW tells him:

Judge Arthur makes a very discouraging representation of the financial standing of the Review and Herald Publishing Company. If the case is indeed as he represents it, we have enough to feel sad about. But I am not going to be sad. I am determined to be cheerful. I was shown some things before the Review and Herald fire, and I am not going to take the burden now. Let us not keep our eyes fixed on the ruins of a condemned office. We shall get no inspiration from such a sight. {Lt134-1903}