how the bible was written

Date: Mar 6, 2016

how the bible was written

Date: Mar 6, 2016

I have needed to bring this out to the people I witness to for some time, so I made it a blog.

Let me know how it reads. http://godspeakshisways.blogspot.com

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

I read the first page on your blog, Ed, and while it is mostly good, I do not believe what is in 1Selected Messages regarding this, is actually from the pen of Ellen White.

As you note towards the top of the article, there are many places in the Bible and SOP that show that the words are from God. Then, in 1SM, we have: "It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired".

That doesn't match with everything else, so I reject it as a spurious statement inserted under the name of "Ellen White". The fact that this comment is ONLY found in a book called "Selected Messages" should be a bright caution flag to any honest reader.

This experience happened to me in 2006 - I went to a "conservative" SDA camp meeting in Germany. One of the speakers, David Kang, gave some powerful presentations. At the dinner table, I told him about my work of spreading the 1858 Great Controversy book. He got right to the point, and asked why I favored this book. Knowing that he was well-versed in the SOP, I went straight to chapter 30, and showed some of it to him. He admitted it was very powerful, but when we got to this paragraph, his countenance changed:

"He who is the father of lies, blinds and deceives the world by sending his angels forth to speak for the apostles, and make it appear that they contradict what they wrote when on earth, which was dictated by the Holy Ghost. These lying angels make the apostles to corrupt their own teachings and declare them to be adulterated. By so doing he can throw professed Christians, who have a name to live and are dead, and all the world, into uncertainty about the word of God; for that cuts directly across his track, and is likely to thwart his plans. Therefore he gets them to doubt the divine origin of the Bible, and then sets up the infidel Thomas Paine, as though he was ushered into heaven when he died, and with the holy apostles whom he hated on earth, is united, and appears to be teaching the world."

He became quite agitated, and said that surely I don't believe it just as it states. I assured him I really do, to which he replied he would get back to me later. Around 10pm that nite, when the lights were already out in my (and roommates') room, he came knocking on the door to show me this passage from 1SM. I saw him the next day on it, and showed him several other quotes, especially that of Jesus where he says: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word proceeding from the mouth of God", to which he vainly argued that it means something different. On the last day of the campmeeting, in the "bookstore", he introduced me to the manager of the "Orion Publishing" space. Now Orion is known in SDA circles as being a strong promoter of the historical SDA message, but the manager there smiled at me and basically said I was way out in left field if I believed all the words in the Bible and what Ellen White wrote were from God.

I consider this problem THE foundational problem in current SDA teaching. I mean, if the words are not really from God, then perhaps our own words have just as much or more truth than the writers then had? And yes, this type of thinking is, perhaps unconsciously, based on Evolution. They think we are getting better and better, so we don't have rely on those "old things".

Instead, let's believe all the words in the Bible are from God, and let's be good Bereans to know what Ellen White actually wrote, and then accept that as the words of God too. smile

Date: Mar 8, 2016

One problem with picking and choosing from the Spirit of Prophecy is the great risk that we will end up doing Satan's work.

The Spirit of Prophecy itself anticipates this problem, for example in this quote:

Those who have helped souls to feel at liberty to specify what is of God in the Testimonies and what are the uninspired words of Sister White, will find that they were helping the devil in his work of deception. {4MR 63.2}

Both the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy contain surface contradictions in the statements that are made, and we need to develop skill in reconciling these contradictions, rather than haphazardly throwing out the parts we don't like.

Date: Mar 8, 2016

stick to the originals and there won't be a problem with any of them...

the original testimonies 1-30

original GC 1858

original GW 1892

spalding and magan

etc.

these are pure... read with confidence and learn from God what is expected of us in these times

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

Vigilantius, I agree with you completely.

When something is definitely part of the Spirit of Prophecy, we'd better believe it.

When something is not in Ellen White's published writings, we are counseled NOT to take it as her settled position.

When something is added and taken away, as the EGW Estate admits openly about the 1911 Great Controversy, for example, and when changes are made such as Ellen White herself noted in an article that she wrote from Australia about doing away with meat, but was edited and printed to mean basically the opposite of what she wrote, and when she had a vision of her close associates in Battle Creek marching in a Catholic-like procession around her house and "proscribing" her books, and when you see many contradictions in books with her name on the cover after her husband's death, and when the chief editor of the Review in 1883 formed a committee of 5 (including Ellen's son) to "remove the imperfections" in her books, and when you see that the man named chief editor disbelieved the Testimonies, and left many addressed to him out of the compiled "Testimonies" we have now, and when that same man (Uriah Smith) was specifically named by Ellen White in 1892 for having done the most to harm her work of anyone in the previous two years........

Shouldn't we be good Bereans and see if these things are so, rather than just gullibly intake everything with "Ellen White" on the cover?

Shouldn't we do that with the Bible too? Some Bibles have the Book of Enoch and Book of Tobit and other weird stuff in them. Just because it says "Holy Bible" on the cover, should we believe it all? When the translators of many Bibles openly show their disbelief in the Bible, and translate from poor manuscripts, and use "dynamic" translation to make it say whatever they want, should we just believe it all as from God?

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

nb, Personally, it looks to me like while James White was chief editor, he was a pretty faithful "houseband" for the books his wife wrote. I've only found one contradiction in books with her name on them published before his death in 1881. After that, while her letters are full of instruction, and I take them as inspired (when speaking in terms of religious issues of course), books with her name on them are quite problematic, as none of them after 1881 were actually written as a book by her (that I know of). She wrote many things, and others compiled them and made books out of them.

The only exceptions I know of to the above are the 1892 Steps to Christ (not the current one), and perhaps the 1884 Great Controversy.

That doesn't mean her later books have no value for us, just that you need to go over them with a fine-tooth comb, just as you would any other book written by any other author.

Date: Mar 9, 2016

part-1

God speaks as He chooses

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the Word of God (MS 24, 1886). {7BC 945.10}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the Word of God.--Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 20, 21. {YRP 225.5}

Ms 24, 1886

NP

1886

Objections to the Bible

This manuscript is published in entirety in 1SM.

Objections to the Bible

Human minds vary. The minds of different education and thought receive different impressions of the same words, and it is difficult for one mind to give to one of a different temperament, education, and habits of thought by language exactly the same idea as that which is clear and distinct in his own mind. Yet to honest men, right-minded men, he can be so simple and plain as to convey his meaning for all practical purposes. If the man he communicates with is not honest and will not want to see and understand the truth, he will turn his words and language in everything to suit his own purposes. He will misconstrue his words, play upon his imagination, wrest them from their true meaning, and then entrench himself in unbelief, claiming that the sentiments are all wrong. {Ms24-1886, par. 1}

This is the way my writings are treated by those who wish to misunderstand and pervert them. They turn the truth of God into a lie. In the very same way that they treat the writings in my published articles and in my books, so do skeptics and infidels treat the Bible. They read it according to their desire to pervert, to misapply, to wilfully wrest the utterances from their true meaning. They declare that the Bible can prove anything and everything, that every sect proves their doctrines right, and that the most diverse doctrines are proven from the Bible. {Ms24-1886, par. 2}

The writers of the Bible had to express their ideas in human language. It was written by human men. These men were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Because of the imperfections of human understanding of language, or the perversity of the human mind, ingenious in evading truth, many read and understand the Bible to please themselves. It is not that the difficulty is in the Bible. Opposing politicians argue points of law in the statute book and take opposite views in their application and in these laws. {Ms24-1886, par. 3}

The Scriptures were given to men, not in a continuous chain of unbroken utterances, but piece by piece through successive generations, as God in His providences saw a fitting opportunity to impress man at sundry times and divers places. Men wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. There is first the bud, then the blossom, and next the fruit, first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. This is exactly what the Bible utterances are to us. {Ms24-1886, par. 4}

There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures. The miracles of Christ are not given in exact order, but are given just as the circumstances occurred, which called for this divine revealing of the power of Christ. The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort. Those who take only a surface view of the Scriptures will, with their superficial knowledge, which they think is very deep, talk of the contradictions of the Bible and question the authority of the Scriptures. But those whose hearts are in harmony with truth and duty will search the Scriptures with a heart prepared to receive divine impressions. The illuminated soul sees a spiritual unity, one grand golden thread running through the whole, but it requires patience, thought, and prayer to trace out the precious golden thread. Sharp contentions over the Bible have led to investigation and revealed the precious jewels of truth. Many tears have been shed, many prayers offered that the Lord would open the understanding to His Word. {Ms24-1886, par. 5}

The Bible is not given to us in grand superhuman language. Jesus, in order to reach man where he is, took humanity. The Bible must be given in the language of men. Everything that is human is imperfect. Different meanings are expressed by the same word; there is not one word for each distinct idea. The Bible was given for practical purposes. {Ms24-1886, par. 6}

The stamps of minds are different. All do not understand expressions and statements alike. Some understand the statements of the Scriptures to suit their own particular minds and cases. Prepossessions, prejudices, and passions have a strong influence to darken the understanding and confuse the mind even in reading the words of Holy Writ. {Ms24-1886, par. 7}

The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets, He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened. {Ms24-1886, par. 8}

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not Gods mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were Gods penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {Ms24-1886, par. 9}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the mans words or his expressions, but on the man himself, who under the influence of the Holy Ghost is imbued with thoughts. But the words and thoughts receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the Word of God. {Ms24-1886, par. 10}

Date: Mar 9, 2016

part-2 concluding -post was too long for software

Why would it seem impossible for God to communicate His meanings and instructions into the thoughts of different individuals ?

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Scripture shows that God's thoughts in our behalf are not tainted by sin, or caused by sin, but our thoughts are. Therefore all our good and untainted and acceptable thoughts are put in us, and developed in us, by Him, or we could not have them.

Psalms 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Could not the phrase for without me ye can do nothing, also include thoughts ? What was it like for Cain and his followers whose society, culture, and entire population put God away from them completely. What happened to their thoughts and imaginings and meditations of their hearts, which later ruled all their speech and actions ?

Without God affecting human thoughts only Satan rules inside the mind what would that do ?

February 15, 1912 "Acquaint Now Thyself With Him" Mrs. E. G. White

"I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord." "Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee. Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart." {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 1}

From the beginning it has been Satan's studied plan to cause men to forget God, that he might secure them to himself. Hence he has sought to misrepresent the character of God, to lead men to cherish a false conception of Him. The Creator has been presented to their minds as clothed with the attributes of the prince of evil himself,--as arbitrary, severe, and unforgiving,--that He might be feared, shunned, and even hated by men. Satan hoped to so confuse the minds of those whom he had deceived that they would put God out of their knowledge. Then he would obliterate the divine image in man and impress his own likeness upon the soul; he would imbue men with his own spirit and make them captives according to his will. {5T 738.1} {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 2}

It was by falsifying the character of God and exciting distrust of Him that Satan tempted Eve to transgress. By sin the minds of our first parents were darkened, their natures were degraded, and their conceptions of God were molded by their own narrowness and selfishness. And as men became bolder in sin, the knowledge and the love of God faded from their minds and hearts. "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God," they "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." {5T 738.2}

At times Satan's contest for the control of the human family appeared to be crowned with success. During the ages preceding the first advent of Christ the world seemed almost wholly under the sway of the prince of darkness, and he ruled with a terrible power as though through the sin of our first parents the kingdoms of the world had become his by right. Even the covenant people, whom God had chosen to preserve in the world the knowledge of Himself, had so far departed from Him that they had lost all true conception of His character. {5T 738.3} {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 3}

Christ came to reveal God to the world as a God of love, full of mercy, tenderness, and compassion. The thick darkness with which Satan had endeavored to enshroud the throne of Deity was swept away by the world's Redeemer, and the Father was again manifest to men as the light of life. {5T 738.4} {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 4}

It was the pitiable condition of the fallen race that led Christ to give his life for their redemption. And what a life of humiliation and suffering was his! Not in his glory, heralded by the heavenly host, did he come to this world. Born of humble parentage, and brought up in obscurity at Nazareth, a small town of Galilee, he began his work in poverty and without worldly rank. That he might stand at the head of humanity, he took upon himself our nature. With his human arm he encircled the human race, while with his divine arm he grasped the throne of the Infinite. {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 5}

Christ is saddened by the sight of men so absorbed in worldly cares and business perplexities that they have no time to become acquainted with God. To them heaven is a strange place; for they have lost it out of their reckoning. Not familiar with heavenly things, they tire of hearing about them. They dislike to have their minds disturbed in regard to their need of salvation. But the Lord desires to disturb their minds, that they may become acquainted with him, in time to accept his offer of salvation. Soon, very soon, whether they desire it or not, they will all know him. The angel of mercy is now folding her wings, almost ready to depart. {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 6}

To eclipse the beauty and loveliness of the Prince of Light, Satan seeks to engross the minds of men with exciting games and other worldly pleasures. He endeavors so to occupy the attention with trivialities that no time will be taken to think of Jesus. Even after the most solemn presentation of the Word of God, the enemy will, if possible, destroy the impressions made by the Holy Spirit. {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 7}

In the books of heaven are accurately recorded the sneers and the trivial remarks of sinners who pay no heed to the call of mercy made, as Christ is presented to them by his ministering servants. As the artist takes on the polished glass a true picture of the human face, so the angels of God daily place upon the books of heaven an exact representation of the character of every human being. {RH, February 15, 1912 par. 8}

end of quote

*****************

So due to following the path of Cain and putting God out of the mind and heart, God not at all in the thoughts Moses wrote what happened. Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

What does God say He will do to fight against Satan that an individual should be reconciled in their mind and heart to Him . The statement of Genesis 3:15. So if God can put enmity against sin and it's master Satan, into my mind on the one hand, thus creating love for Himself and His things, as the only other Master, as Jesus spoke of the two Masters. Why would God be incapable if also prophetically inspiring an individual's thoughts ? If God starts something is He incapable of bringing it to completed perfection ? Prophecy is not that perfection, face to face in Heaven, is that perfection, which all Bible students of even the smallest experience agree is the goal and mission of salvation's perfecting the individual.

So God started salvation by coming in the cool of the evening and bringing what Genesis 3:15 speaks of with Him, and across the centuries sent the testifying of Christ to facilitate the salvation from sin and reconciliation of human (character the thoughts, feelings ), minds and hearts and lives with Heaven, so is God capable of inspiring thoughts or not, is God's arm too short or is God's arm completely sufficient to complete and perfect His work even unto inspiring human thoughts and feelings during this as yet uncompleted process which is fast closing?

Is it Biblically accurate to say that among the divers communications from Heaven, that God prophetically can and does inspire thoughts as He chooses, or not ?

If God acts a certain way, Amos 3:7 says He reveals it by His prophet . Well Did He ?

Date: Mar 14, 2016

Men act as thou they had been given special liberty to cancel the decisions of God. The higher criticize put themselves in the place of God, and review the Word of God, revising or endorsing it. In this way all nations are induced to drink the wine of the fornication of Babylon. These higher critics have fixed things to suit the popular heresies of these last days. If they cannot subvert and misapply the Word of God, if they cannot bond it to human practices, they break it. {Lt48-1897}

But no man who is a partaker of the divine nature will judge the Word of God, for he realizes that it is that Word that judges him. We cannot bring our religion to the Bible, and re-shape and misplace the Scriptures to prove our religion true. We must obtain our religion from the Word, just as it reads. Those who have felt at liberty to reject any portion of Gods Word at pleasure, trampling upon it because it does not suit the worlds measure, or accommodate their own practices in business deal, will find that they are handling a sword which cuts both ways. {Lt48-1897}

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now what does Satan propose to do? He proposes that he is capable of changing this Bible. These parties that fell understand all about heaven, and that they can bring in the different sentiments from the Bible, and they are going to have a revision of it. You will see they will make revisions of the Bible, but every one of us needs to stand intelligently on the Word. We cannot afford to be careless, but we must have that simplicity of godliness that is a virtue to us. We must have it. {Ms80-1910 (April 7, 1910) par. 10}

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

Interesting quotes, zafer.

Thank you.

Date: Mar 18, 2016

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after that He through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom He had chosen: to whom also He showed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: and being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of Me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. {Ms40-1903}
But though addressed by name to one person, this book, written by the dictation of the Holy Spirit, is designed for all who desire to understand its truths. Whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning. {Ms40-1903}

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

Very interesting quote, zafer about dictation.

Also, on a different note, the fact that Acts is addressed to someone with a Greek name strongly supports the idea that it was originally written in Greek. I know that was the commonly-held view by Christians for centuries, but now there are a number of people who believe that the Holy Scriptures were all originally written in Hebrew, as that is said somehow to be a "godly" language.

Date: Mar 19, 2016

EarlySDA wrote:
Very interesting quote, zafer about dictation.
Also, on a different note, the fact that Acts is addressed to someone with a Greek name strongly supports the idea that it was originally written in Greek. I know that was the commonly-held view by Christians for centuries, but now there are a number of people who believe that the Holy Scriptures were all originally written in Hebrew, as that is said somehow to be a "godly" language.

Yes, I heard that some of the Messianic Jews believe that, but I'm not persuaded of that theory. Look here what it writes:

For long ages after this [the day of Pentecost], apostasies were constantly occurring. Disloyalty to God was manifested. But still God had faithful witnesses to whom He committed the truth, and who preserved the Word of God. The manuscripts of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures have been preserved through the ages by a miracle of God. {Lt32-1899}

Did God preserve some Greek translation of the Hebrew original or the Hebrew and Greek originals? Personally I'm inclined to believe that He preserved the Hebrew originals and the Greek originals as well. From the following quote it seems to me that what it was preserved is the Word given by God and not some translation of it:

Then, after he had given his Word to man, he had carefully preserved it, so that Satan and his angels, through any agent or representative, could not destroy it. {1SG 116.3}

Holy Spirit for sure knows not only Hebrew but other languages too and what we really need to be sure of is that, during the loud cry will speak through consecrated instruments into the various languages of our day:

None who catch the divine rays from the Sun of righteousness will lack for fitting words. It will not be oratory, as the world counts oratory, but heavenly eloquence. They will speak words that will go direct to minds, awakening conviction and causing their hearers to ask, What is truth? We are to depend upon the great, invisible Master-teacher for appropriate words. In the days of the apostles, men spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. In this our day, men supposed to be illiterate will speak words dictated by the Holy Spirit. {Lt123-1905}

There are other quotes mentioning the dictation of the Holy Spirit:

The scribes of God wrote as they were dictated by the Holy Spirit, having no control of the work themselves. They penned the literal truth, and stern, forbidding facts are revealed, for reasons that our finite minds cannot fully comprehend. It is one of the best evidences of the authenticity of the Scriptures, that the truth is not glossed over, nor the sins of its chief characters suppressed. {RH, January 22, 1880 par. 1 }

Hundreds of years before a people has come upon the stage of action, the prophetic pen, under the dictation of the Holy Spirit, has traced its history. The prophet Daniel described the kingdoms that would rise and fall. {Ms36-1896}

In the record He was charged by the Holy Spirit to present, John says of Christ [...]. The history of Christ is to be searched, comparing Scripture with Scripture, that we may learn the all-important lesson: What are the terms of salvation? As intelligent agents, invested with personal attributes and responsibilities, we can know in regard to our future, eternal destiny; for the Scripture record given by John, at the dictation of the Holy Spirit, contains no terms that cannot be easily comprehended and that will not bear the most searching and critical investigation. {Ms8-1896}

In addressing His disciples, Christ spoke to the Pharisees also. He did not give up all hope that they would perceive the force of His words. Many had been deeply convicted, and as they heard the living testimony under the dictation of the Holy Spirit, Christ desired that, if not before His crucifixion, after His resurrection and ascension, they would be converted from Phariseeism and receive the truth. {Ms19-1898}

I have written you letters dictated by the Spirit of God, and I beg of you do not disregard my efforts and do not turn aside your own convictions of right and duty. {Lt2-1867}

In the testimonies sent to the Denver meeting, the Spirit of God dictated a message that should prevent the carrying out of plans which would result in disappointment.{Lt287-1905}

Date: Mar 20, 2016

With regard to the Bible and SOP being "dictated", we need to be careful just how far we push this.

In the first place, human modes of thought are not the same as God's modes, and we should not assume that God thinks in Hebrew and Greek. Any words or thoughts impressed on human writers represent a condescension on God's part.

Another point is that we know that Bible writers sometimes used scribes, notably Paul (Romans 16:22, Galatians 6:11). If the Bible writers served only to transcribe words literally dictated to them, then why not cut out the middlemen entirely and have the Spirit dictate to the scribes instead? Or why not cut out the scribes as well, and instead have the manuscripts magically appear from heaven?

The quote below is taken from the introduction to the 1888 Great Controversy. The second paragraph is quite interesting in this context. God uses human agents to reach their fellow men and women, and we need to take this consideration into account when we study into how the Bible and SOP came to be.

Of course, it is possible to dismiss the quote as spurious.

Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony. {GC88 d.1}

As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of a subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind; a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life. {GC88 d.2}

Date: Mar 21, 2016

Vigilantius wrote:
In the first place, human modes of thought are not the same as God's modes, and we should not assume that God thinks in Hebrew and Greek. Any words or thoughts impressed on human writers represent a condescension on God's part.

What I see from the Bible is that there is a wide difference between the thoughts and the words of God. Yes, His words are expressions of His unsearchable thoughts. But, while God's thoughts are unfathomable for our limited human minds, God reveals Himself to us in plain, simple words. Let's just have a look:

God's thoughts - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Is. 55:8-9)

God's words - For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (v. 10-11)

Though the earth can not reach to the clouds to take water from there that it may bear fruit, the ground is still watered from the water coming down from the sky as rain. Similarly, although the human mind can not grasp the thought of the All-wise, God reveals Himself through His words. Looking on the matter from the other end, we can see in the Epistle to Romans how close to us God's Word is:

God's words - Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? _[_]The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart (Rom 10:6, 8)

God's thoughts - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom. 11:33-36)

For this reason, the claim made by the textual critics, who are telling us that they can improve the sacred text by revising it over and over, has no ground in the Scriptures. Their pretext is that God didn't inspire words, and what the prophets received was some kind of wordless thoughts which they were supposed to convert them into words as best as they could. I don't know how that could work, since I know that when I think, I think in words. But, leaving aside even such simple laws of the human mind, we can plainly see that from the Bible that God always sent His word to His prophets, and never His thoughts:

... the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision ... (Gen. 15:1, see also v. 4)

Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying (1Sam. 15:10)

And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying (2Sam. 7:4)

the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying (2Sam. 24:11)

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying (1Kings 6:11)

But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying (1Kings 12:22)

... the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back (1Kings 13:20)

Then the word of the LORD came to Jehu the son of Hanani against Baasha, saying (1Kings 16:1, see also v.7)

... And these are just few of such dozen of examples.

Date: Apr 19, 2016

Vigilantius wrote:
Another point is that we know that Bible writers sometimes used scribes, notably Paul (Romans 16:22, Galatians 6:11). If the Bible writers served only to transcribe words literally dictated to them, then why not cut out the middlemen entirely and have the Spirit dictate to the scribes instead? Or why not cut out the scribes as well, and instead have the manuscripts magically appear from heaven?

This is only to prove the validity of the work of copyist, and that the manuscripts which were copied with accuracy again and again are as inspired as those coming out of the pen of Moses, Isaiah and other prophets. See, Baruc was not inspired when he wrote down the book of Jeremiah but, because the words he was writing were inspired by the Holy Spirit, what he wrote we can consider as an inspired book. Notice also that Paul, before stating that All scripture is given by inspiration of God (2Tim 3:16), he told Timothy that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures (v. 15). It would be entirely out of place and disconnected with the next verse to tell this if the scriptures Timothy was acquainted with were uninspired. But, though it is very unlikely that the manuscripts from where he learned the scriptures were the manuscripts coming out directly from the pen of Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc. but rather a copy of them, what Timothy used to hear/read was still inspired holy scriptures.

Here we get a huge problem if we accept the spurious testimonies, which are telling us that the words of the prophets were not inspired but only the prophets themselves: ALL THE PROPHETS ARE DEAD NOW. So, where do we go now to find anything inspired today? Should we seek for their bones maybe hmm ? Look what the Bible has to say on this:

Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for ever? But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us.
(Zec. 1:5-6)

Though the prophets by which God's message was send are dead, the words spoken by them under inspiration are valid today as ever. Though all flesh (including the prophet) is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field (Is. 40:6), though the grass withereth, the flower fadeth we still have the assurance: the word of our God shall stand for ever (v. 8).

Date: Apr 21, 2016

This is an excellent post, Anonymous (zafer?)

It has always caused me wonderment when I hear some people say that they believe some of Ellen White:s books were changed after she died, so they are careful about books with her name on the cover after 1915, but they blindly trust everything with her name on it printed before that date.

Either they are not thinking carefully that they are basically saying God is a puny god who is dependent on people being alive to safeguard his words, or else they truly don:t believe the words are from God in the first place.

Date: May 1, 2016

webmaster wrote:
Either they are not thinking carefully that they are basically saying God is a puny god who is dependent on people being alive to safeguard his words, or else they truly don:t believe the words are from God in the first place.

Yes webmaster, that was zafer, hopefully about to wake up from his deep laodiceean sleep blankstare . I was also among those having a hard time to accept that people made changes to the writings while EGW was alive. For some reason I didn't see the clearly the good point that you are making: God is not dependent on the flesh to protect His Word.

And now, my big question: was God dependent on James White to protect His Word?

Date: May 3, 2016

zafer wrote:
webmaster wrote:
Either they are not thinking carefully that they are basically saying God is a puny god who is dependent on people being alive to safeguard his words, or else they truly don:t believe the words are from God in the first place.
Yes webmaster, that was zafer, hopefully about to wake up from his deep laodiceean sleep. I was also among those having a hard time to accept that people made changes to the writings while EGW was alive. For some reason I didn't see the clearly the good point that you are making: God is not dependent on the flesh to protect His Word.
And now, my big question: was God dependent on James White to protect His Word?

the way I understand it, God chose James specifically to protect the writings...

seems like God will use people so that it can be a blessing to them...

Date: May 18, 2016

We are to maintain the inspiration of the Scriptures religiously and zealously, in a period of the worlds [history] when men who claim to be religious are not religious as far as the sacred Scriptures are concerned. They are a pretense. They would change the Scriptures into an unreliable production and bring in forgery as the Word of the Lord. {Ms88-1910}

Any thoughts on this quote?

Date: Oct 20, 2017

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08045a.htm

In the sixteenth century verbal inspiration was the current teaching. The Jesuits of Louvain were the first to react against this opinion. They held "that it is not necessary in order that a text be Holy Scripture, for the Holy Ghost to have inspired the very material words used."

http://www.fbb.nu/artikkel/verbal-inspiration-of-scripture/

During the seventeenth century the denial of the verbal inspiration became especially apparent among the Jesuits and the socinians. Preus tells about a colloquy, which was arranged in Regensburg 1601 between the Roman Catholics and the Lutherans. In that meeting the Jesuits publicly denied that Scripture is the Word of God.

Date: Oct 22, 2017

Those are both very interesting links, zafer. Thank you!

I read both of them, and got some important information. I have spoken against *verbal inspiration* because it is not a biblical term. I thot it meant that the writers were basically robots, mechanically writings down what God whispered in their ears. I see from these articles that this view of verbal inspiration is common, but that is not what the term generally means anymore.

This part was especially revealing, in talking about how the Jesuits first attacked *verbal inspiration*, then modified it, then fine-tuned it, until today, the verbal inspiration belief, and the idea promoted by the Jesuits that the *substance* is inspired, but not the very words - are practically the same. Of course this is the position (sadly) of our Seventh-day Adventist Church today. This position leaves open the possibility of *minor errors* in the Bible, which may be why we, as a Church, changed our beliefs from calling the Bible *unerring* to just *infallible* today. The Roman Catholic Church also believes they are infallible! But if they aren't *inerrant*, then they are not the final word in determining what is truth, and what is not.

This particual part made me think: *When the dogmaticians speak about Scripture as the Word of God they speak about the inspired content of Scripture when they speak exactly. On the other hand the letters and words in Scripture don't only signify the inspired content of Scripture but they actually reveal this divine meaning and therefore it is impossible to separate them from it*

Date: Nov 5, 2017

webmaster wrote:
I see from these articles that this view of verbal inspiration is common, but that is not what the term generally means anymore.

It's more than possible that, in order to combat a position, they would made it sound ridiculous to the hearers. Anyhow, the last day's strong delusions are sooo ... strong!!!

Date: Nov 8, 2017

webmaster wrote:
This part was especially revealing, in talking about how the Jesuits first attacked *verbal inspiration*, then modified it, then fine-tuned it, until today, the verbal inspiration belief, and the idea promoted by the Jesuits that the *substance* is inspired, but not the very words - are practically the same.

Hi Daniel! I am glad that you found helpful there resources. In case that you have enough patience for one more, this presentation also makes clear the connection between the attack on the concept of verbal / words inspiration and the counter-reformation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwmwTC8b2Zk

Date: Nov 18, 2017

In Scripture it refers to God communicating in divers manners. Symbols, pictures, forms, visions, dreams, with His Own Finger, moving people by the Holy Ghost, being quoted, dictating, etc . Inspiration is only limited by God, He gives enough evidence to know it's from Him, and inspires us all to study.

Date: Nov 22, 2017

Zafer, I went and watched that video last Sabbath.

It was quite interesting. One point really made me think, and worry. That was his assertion that it was a Catholic idea to say that while the original autographs are all perfectly true and from God, we don:t have the originals anymore, so cannot be sure we REALLY have the actual words of God now. That really makes me think.....

I believe we CAN say the words are from God even in a translation, yet something about this is troubling me. I think it is because I have to admit that we don:t actually have the originals.

Any comments, advice you have would be appreciated.

Date: Nov 23, 2017

webmaster wrote:
Zafer, I went and watched that video last Sabbath.
It was quite interesting. One point really made me think, and worry. That was his assertion that it was a Catholic idea to say that while the original autographs are all perfectly true and from God, we don:t have the originals anymore, so cannot be sure we REALLY have the actual words of God now. That really makes me think.....
I believe we CAN say the words are from God even in a translation, yet something about this is troubling me. I think it is because I have to admit that we don:t actually have the originals.
Any comments, advice you have would be appreciated.

Surely God could have preserved the original documents where His words were initially written. But He didn't do so. He wants us to have faith in His promises that He will preserve His words. There is no promise that He will preserve the parchment, the papyri or the paper. And even the temple where the standard Hebrew manuscripts were kept in the custody of priests and scribes was't going to be preserved. Interestingly enough, in the same discussion where Jesus was telling His disciples about the coming destruction of the temple, He said the following:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matt. 24:35)

BTW: Scholars today dig the earth to find old manuscripts. But the earth where they expect to find those documents is going to pass away while the words will remain. This means for me that the preservation of Jesus's words is not dependent on manuscripts and not even on the earth which contains them.

Date: Nov 14, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMrx_FhnCKc

For those short of time I recommend min. 27-30.