Did it make any difference to Babylon when the prophecy that they would fall came to pass? Did it make any difference to the Mede's or the Persians that they were the ones to make it come to pass? Did they stop to consider that they too would fall, in time, just as Babylon did? Was Greece aware they were next in line to become a world power, when they did, did they see it in prophecy? What difference, if any, did it make to them? Or Rome rising, the last "world power" brought to view in Daniel. When Rome fell and was divided into multiple kingdoms, did they care or consider the prophecies?
Some, a few, were paying attention, the "wise men" studied the prophecies enough to know the king of the Jews would be born! To them, it made a difference. To Adventists it makes a difference concerning 1798, 1844 and many other dates.
What about the very last verse of Daniel 11, verse 45? What will that mean, to those watching for its fulfillment? What should we do, if anything, when it becomes clear that verse 45 HAS been fulfilled? Or, will we even know it when it happens? The Jews didn't know Jesus was coming the first time until the "wise men" showed up, they could have known, but they didn't. IF history repeats itself, verse 45 may be fulfilled and most won't even realize it. For those that DO recognize it, what then should they do? Sell their house? Quit their job? Go into deep hiding in the woods? Adapt a total "survival mode" lifestyle? After all, look at the very next verse, 12:1, Michael stands up, probation will close, the end of all things have come indeed!
How much time might pass between the fulfillment of verse 45 and when Michael stands up in 12:1? If the time is immediate, why do we even need verse 45, of what value will it be to the Saints or anyone else, if probation ends at the same time as 45 being fulfilled?
I conclude, there MUST be a space of time between the two verses. There must be some significant reason we should be able to tell precisely when verse 45 is fulfilled. There must be something we will need to do when we see it.
I see the fulfillment of verse 45 as Jerusalem laid waste, the city on fire, devastated by the literal king of the north coming into town and conquering the land of Palestine. The streets running red with the blood of Jews, the last and most horrific holocaust ever. The world then poised on the brink of all out world war.
Before or after the Sunday law has passed, the national or the international Sunday law? Which comes first, verse 45 or the Sunday law?
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. The abomination that makes desolate has not happened yet, as of September 2015.
When you see that abomination, you are counseled to run to the hills.
The replies are typical of the confusion over Daniel 11 that has existed since about the 1940's. Before that, our pioneers were perfectly untied in their understanding of Daniel.
I would like to see somebody, anybody, provide a blow by blow account for every verse in Daniel 11 from about verse 20 to 45, no one has been able to do that. James Rafferty gave it a shot but came up a bit short. Tim Roosenberg has done it, but its a strange mix of literal and figurative interpretation. I don't see any room in Daniel for both applications, it is either literal or it is figurative. If its figurative it violates Father Millers rule #11, therefore, it must be literal. All agree the first 23 verses or so are in fact literal. The justification to abandon a literal application half way through the chapter has not been justified to any reasonable degree. It is not advisable to change horses mid stream.
It is doubtful those who continue to look for this or that application to the various verses, being unsure of what they mean or when they happened or just who the players were will not see Daniel verse 45 fulfilled. The way mark, for such, will have no meaning, prophecy won't matter. They will continue to search for answers. Like the Jewish Nation in AD 70, they will stay in confusion right up to the end.
The Jewish leaders were telling the people to "hang on" while the temple was burning in AD 70, the city being destroyed. Hang on they cried, the Lord will save us, He will work a miracle, we will survive, the Romans will be defeated, just hang on! They all died, they never figured it out, prophecy for them had no meaning. The Christians figured it out, they escaped before the destruction and not a single one was lost, THEY understood prophecy, to them it had great meaning.
...only one verse left, verse 45. Verse 40 was fulfilled in 1798, when Bonaparte attacked Egypt and Turkey in turn attacked Bonaparte (France, in essence). A three way battle. Egypt did not escape the tyranny of her oppressive ruler, the Turks. Bonaparte returned to France, his army ravaged and beaten by Turkey and her allies. And all this at the very "time of the end", 1798, just a few short weeks after Bonaparte ordered the "deadly wound" and began his campaign against Egypt and Palestine.
With regard to the last part of Daniel 11, it's worth noting that the SOP says that at least some of the history will be repeated. Whether this would be called a "dual fulfillment" or not I don't know.
So it might be difficult to produce a 1-1 mapping between verses and historical events.
Here is the quote:
"We have no time to lose. Troublous times are before us. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that 'shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.' [Verses 31-36, quoted.]" {13MR 394.1}
At the time she said this the people of her day, the pioneers, were perfectly united on their understanding of a literal interpretation of Daniel 11. As it concerns the powers that will return she is referring to the return of the beast power, from verses 31-35. Verse 36 is a reference to the return of atheism, such as was seen in the French Revolution. Not a "dual fulfillment" but a "return" of the principles. Not the "beast" itself, but apostate Christianity, daughters of the beast. Not atheism as we saw in France, but atheism gaining strength and acceptance around the world. We certainly see THAT today right now here in America. Atheism is certainly rearing its ugly head, as seen in the almost constant news reports of their actions. The beast power, and its daughters, ever growing, gaining strength, we see their "return" to power as well. History is being repeated, not yet come to full fruition, but the hand writing is on the wall!
The people of her day would have understood; "The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment." as pertaining to a direct reference to verse 45. Why? Because they accepted the fact that all the other verses in Daniel had already been fulfilled. Verse 44 in the 1853 to 1856 Crimean War (Florence Nightingale, etc.).
The question on everybody's mind in the 1870's, not just Adventists, but the world in general, was what would the outcome of the Russo/Turkey War be? What IF Russia should conquer and take over the Ottoman Empire? What would it mean to commercial trade in Europe if Russia controlled the straits which provide access to the Black Sea? This war had tremendous global consequences hanging on its outcome. It was doubtful that Turkey could prevail, as it was then called the "Sick Man of the East". It was amazing that Turkey DID prevail. But what if they hadn't?
Smith spelled it out, at a camp meeting, before 20,000 mostly NON Adventists in attendance. Verse 45. IF Russia prevails, THEN, Turkey would be obliged to move the seat of its head quarters to a different part of its vast empire. What part? Palestine! It would be the same IF the Capital in Washington D.C. were "nuked" THEN the U.S.A. would be obliged to move its head quarters to a different part of its "empire", Pennsylvania perhaps, or Virginia maybe, but somewhere out of D.C.
The logic continues thus: IF Turkey DID relocate its "tents and palaces" (HQ) to Palestine (Jerusalem) that would fulfill verse 45 and what is the next verse? Michael stands up, probation is closed and the final events would rapidly follow. In James Whites view this would mean tithes and offerings would come to a screeching halt, the Church would remain deeply in the debt it had only recently incurred and if time went forward to long, it would be a financial disaster! This is one of a few reasons he immediately followed Smith, at that camp meeting, and presented an old view that had abandoned decades before, that the king of the north was the papacy. That Turkey and Russia were of no concern, everyone calm down (and keep those offerings coming in). Willie White was shocked, his Dad had not presented this idea since 1844 and it had long been buried, why was he bring it up now, Willie asked him directly. James wouldn't answer him. Ellen White counseled him that whatever his ideas may be, he made a serious mistake countering Smiths views in front of the public. That was the main thrust of her counsel, not who was right or who was wrong, just STOP arguing about in public!
...one verse left. The reason no one can provide a verse by verse analysis, as our pioneers did, is because we are so divided and confused over what the verses mean, when they are supposed to happen, who the players might be. ALL we know, or THINK we know, is that somehow the king of the north must be the papacy. That somehow the entire body of Adventists in the 1870's was wrong and James was right! But James never wrote his ideas, he never offered the sound reasoning and logic for his position beyond a statement or two. Smith wrote an entire book, detailing every verse, in both Daniel and Revelation, and the two fit together like a hand and glove. We will never know exactly what James thinking was as he died the same year Smiths book was published. Coincidence? I don't think it was, but perhaps... Perhaps, James was laid in his grave for the same reasons William Miller was laid in his grave, to save him from himself.
One thing is certain concerning verses 30-36. Since she said these scenes will be REPEATED, in 1909 I think was the date, the scenes to which she refers had already taken place.
It is certain these verses deal with events involving France and the papacy. SIMILAR events like these are the ones to be repeated she states. Not the same events, SIMILAR events.
Thus the query of "where we are at" on the time line of Daniel 11 must begin with verse 37 and onward.
Isn't it time to take God's words at face value, instead of trying valiantly to support Uriah Smith's theories (which were mostly hand me downs from Sunday-keepers)?
We know for sure that the 5th Trumpet has not been fulfilled. We know also that the 6th Trumpet has not been fulfilled. Taking God's words as they read, it is abundantly clear that none of the 7 Trumpets has been fulfilled (when I say "fulfilled", I mean its final fulfillment).
In a similar vein, it is easy to see that at least the last part of Daniel 11 needs to have a final fulfillment too, if all the words in it are to have their proper weight. Verse 31 is shown by Jesus himself to have a future fulfillment.
