It sounds like a man made conundrum by the wording and solutions offered. Abortion is murder, legalized murder for what ever reasons and rationals.
Thus under that legality the opposing forces fight against abortion by what ever means legality still allows them or they feel they can get away with.
"The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power--all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these.--GC 603, 604, 606 (1911). {LDE 199.3}"
Spiritual Babylon has stacked the deck RE abortion, and set up laws to protect legalized murder of the babies Christ died and rose again to save.
" Children are the lawful prey of the enemy, because they are not subjects of grace, have not experienced the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus, and the evil angels have access to these children; and some parents are careless and suffer them to work with but little restraint. Parents have a great work to do in this matter, by correcting and subduing their children, and then by bringing them to God and claiming his blessing upon them. By the faithful and untiring efforts of the parents, and the blessing and grace entreated of God upon the children, the power of the evil angels will be broken, a sanctifying influence is shed upon the children, and the powers of darkness must give back. {RH, September 19, 1854 par. 11}
Satan obviously loves abortion, and God records no reproof for Rahab's lie in the Bible.
"Only faithful Rahab, with her household, was spared, in fulfillment of the promise of the spies. . . . {CTr 134.5}
The utter destruction of the people of Jericho was but a fulfillment of the commands previously given through Moses concerning the inhabitants of Canaan: Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them.. . . To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. . . . The Canaanites had abandoned themselves to the foulest and most debasing heathenism, and it was necessary that the land should be cleared of what would so surely prevent the fulfillment of Gods gracious purposes.Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 488-492. {CTr 134.6}
God knows she lied and yet she is called "faithful" . Rahab = 18 SOP hits and not one negative hit found.
Rahab was not yet an Israelite and therefore God has winked at her lying. Jesus died for our sins of ignorance.
We should never lie... however there may be exceptions. Here is one: for one with loss of memory and when asking where their parents are or brothers and sisters [which are deceased] it will be easier not tell this person they are dead as it may result in hours of crying and sadness... maybe a half truth just get by and then they will even forget they even asked the question...
One doesn't need to read the article to answer the question, "Is it ever OK to lie ___________" Fill in the blank.
The answer is straight forward, "No", under and all circumstances. Not to the Nazi when you hiding a Jew in the closet. Not in any life or death circumstance, obviously that includes abortion. To ask the question is to ask, "Do you trust God to provide a solution, or not?"
I know this presents an all but impossible concept for many to grasp, there are other spiritual concepts that are difficult to grasp. I leave plenty of room for those who, with a sincere heart, are unable to grasp this or other dilemmas of spirituality. One may lie and God will wink at it, others may have to be much more strict, God knows the heart and the circumstances.
But consider this: He who created "natural law" will abide by those laws Himself in most cases. Whether you knew the food was poison, or not, there WILL be consequences, unless He divinely intercedes. And IF you have place something in the way of His interceding, like a lie, you create an untenable situation for our Father by your own choice. Sometimes, we suffer not because of OUR choices, but the choices and consequences of others. Like Joshua and Caleb returning to the wilderness with the Israelites, they personally did nothing wrong, but they still paid a price. It's just another aspect of His "natural" and "spiritual" laws playing out. The Great Controversy is fair to both sides, evil and good, God is no respecter of persons in that regard. He places limits, boundaries, for sure and thank God He does! But they must be reasonable and fair to both sides of the controversy or free will is endangered, and free will is Gods highest law!
I take no hard and fast stand on abortion, one way or the other. I do believe the circumstances need to be considered on an individual basis. I believe the "bar" for deciding to abort should remain very high indeed. I will leave the final choice to the mother, the doctor, her counselers, etc. understanding that good counsel is like finding a gold nugget of unestimeble worth!
Doesn't sound good at all, yet.... the midwives lied to Pharaoh and God blessed them for it. Rahab lied and God blessed her for it. David lied about being crazy and God said he was a "man after my own heart".
Perhaps the 9th commandment needs deeper study?
I know many people say God doesn't keep his own laws because he kills many people, yet, in closer study, the commandment doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill".
Forgot to include my handle on that anonymous post...
Mary killing the baby Jesus? I don't understand that comment, but no offense taken. As it concerns being ambivalent about abortion I feel we must leave room for extraordinary circumstances. Ben Carson, for instance, supports the abortion pill (I forget the name, RU something I think) and I too feel it has a place in the discussion. In extraordinary circumstances, I would not disapprove of a women going immediately to the emergency room to secure such a drug for instance. There are other circumstances, however remote, however unlikely, that we should leave room for.
As it concerns the basic question: "Is it ever OK to lie?" du Preez addressing several biblical instances of where people lied and apparently, but NOT ACTUALLY, God was OK with that. David was NOT a "man after Gods own heart" at all times!! Sister White makes that clear. There is no man on earth, ever, who did not fall at some point. Davids repentance was extraordinary, but four of his sons still died. A direct consequence of Davids great sin. There is forgiveness AND depending on the case there is also "boundaries" and consequences. I forgive my enemies, but that doesn't mean we are going to be able to work together, or be close buddies, boundaries are OK.
That's why Paul went one way and Barnabus the other when they had a dispute. I assume neither was angry with the other, they just recognized the current reality and the need for boundaries for a time.
Forgot to include my handle on that anonymous post...
Mary killing the baby Jesus? I don't understand that comment, but no offense taken. As it concerns being ambivalent about abortion I feel we must leave room for extraordinary circumstances. Ben Carson, for instance, supports the abortion pill (I forget the name, RU something I think) and I too feel it has a place in the discussion. In extraordinary circumstances, I would not disapprove of a women going immediately to the emergency room to secure such a drug for instance. There are other circumstances, however remote, however unlikely, that we should leave room for.
As it concerns the basic question: "Is it ever OK to lie?" du Preez addressing several biblical instances of where people lied and apparently, but NOT ACTUALLY, God was OK with that. David was NOT a "man after Gods own heart" at all times!! Sister White makes that clear. There is no man on earth, ever, who did not fall at some point. Davids repentance was extraordinary, but four of his sons still died. A direct consequence of Davids great sin. There is forgiveness AND depending on the case there is also "boundaries" and consequences. I forgive my enemies, but that doesn't mean we are going to be able to work together, or be close buddies, boundaries are OK.
That's why Paul went one way and Barnabus the other when they had a dispute. I assume neither was angry with the other, they just recognized the current reality and the need for boundaries for a time.
you will not forget the name when I explain it to you and others that read this
in hospitals, docs and nurses have their own lingo when referring to things to keep patients in the dark or to shelter their feelings possibly... the number 86 always refers to death.... when they were trying to come up with the name for the abortion pill they called it ... RU486... in other words, are you for 86?
we must always pray for God's protection and help in situations where we must tell the truth even though it may seem dangerous to some... God will take care of it if we trust in Him
Forgot to include my handle on that anonymous post...
Mary killing the baby Jesus? I don't understand that comment, but no offense taken. As it concerns being ambivalent about abortion I feel we must leave room for extraordinary circumstances. Ben Carson, for instance, supports the abortion pill (I forget the name, RU something I think) and I too feel it has a place in the discussion. In extraordinary circumstances, I would not disapprove of a women going immediately to the emergency room to secure such a drug for instance. There are other circumstances, however remote, however unlikely, that we should leave room for.
As it concerns the basic question: "Is it ever OK to lie?" du Preez addressing several biblical instances of where people lied and apparently, but NOT ACTUALLY, God was OK with that. David was NOT a "man after Gods own heart" at all times!! Sister White makes that clear. There is no man on earth, ever, who did not fall at some point. Davids repentance was extraordinary, but four of his sons still died. A direct consequence of Davids great sin. There is forgiveness AND depending on the case there is also "boundaries" and consequences. I forgive my enemies, but that doesn't mean we are going to be able to work together, or be close buddies, boundaries are OK.
That's why Paul went one way and Barnabus the other when they had a dispute. I assume neither was angry with the other, they just recognized the current reality and the need for boundaries for a time.
you will not forget the name when I explain it to you and others that read this
in hospitals, docs and nurses have their own lingo when referring to things to keep patients in the dark or to shelter their feelings possibly... the number 86 always refers to death.... when they were trying to come up with the name for the abortion pill they called it ... RU486... in other words, are you for 86?
we must always pray for God's protection and help in situations where we must tell the truth even though it may seem dangerous to some... God will take care of it if we trust in Him
I have no doubt the many and varied excuses to perform an abortion are like mans heart, deceitfully wicked. I have no doubt RU486, like all drugs, is often abused.
But I won't place an absolute condition on everyone, everywhere, because the circumstances may in some unforeseen and unfortunate way, dictate its use, NOT its abuse.
Mankind is deteriorating more and more with each generation, its a mess out there.
Related question or new thread? Here it comes.
Do severely mentally incapacitated people, lacking the ability to understand or make a choice to serve or love God in some way, find salvation? I don't think that is possible and I base that on the SOP counsel we have concerning SOME slaves (of any nationality, at any time in earths history, in any country or place) being born into, lived and died under such oppression they were little more than like the beasts of the field. So what does God in a case like this? The SOP counsel continues,,, they will not be resurrected at all. It will be as though they had never been. Because of His mercy, they will not be punished, nor can they be accepted into heaven without having had the opportunity to make a choice.
Applying the above principal, correctly understood, babies would fall into the same circumstance noted above. Before they reached the age of accountability, mentally handicapped or not, then what? In such a case, it SEEMS to be, it APPEARS to be, from the counsel, let every man be convinced in his own heart, that their salvation becomes dependent on the parent(s). That based on Ellen Whites statement she would see her own baby, who died at an early age in the new earth. I don't believe this applies to every baby in every circumstance.
Would you not "place an absolute condition on everyone, everywhere, because the circumstances may in some unforeseen and unfortunate way, dictate its use, NOT its abuse"?
Murder is disallowed in any and all conditions by the commandment. Killing, however, is certainly allowed, by man or by our Father when the circumstances demand it.
When the "bad guy" comes into your home in the middle of the night and is clearly a deadly threat to your family, how would you respond to protect the innocent? I believe this is an example of Christian courage and you are biblically authorized, if not commanded, to take a life in this circumstance. Killing, even when justified, accomplished with a spirit of revenge may cross the line into murder. God knows.
I do believe the classic example of a mothers life in danger because of a pregnancy is overused and for the most part hyperbole. But however remote that circumstance may be, it is real enough to disallow an absolute forbiddance of abortion. As it concerns RU486 in cases of extreme sexual assault and depending on the who the parties are, the circumstances, I must leave room for it.
I was just talking to a friend of mine who repeated what has been in the news lately, that women have some mysterious way to "shut down" a pregnancy in cases like this. I don't believe that because it in essence goes against the "natural laws" that God created. When the natural law conditions are met, pregnancy will occur, its not just a bad or good idea, its the law!
If you agree that "Murder is disallowed in any and all conditions by the commandment." to be consistent, you must agree that abortion is disallowed in any and all conditions by the commandment.
I make a clear distinction between "murder" and "killing". You see abortion, under any circumstances as "murder", I allow for extraordinary circumstances to establish which it is, murder or killing. To allow a woman to carry to term, knowing the pregnancy would kill her in the end, may also well be considered "murder". A terrible choice may have to be made in such a case, whose life then should be considered of greater value? The unborn child or the mother?
I tend toward NOT taking a hard and fast position on many issues because of the complexity and circumstances that may arise, I'm OK with that. I allow you the religious freedom to take what ever hard and fast position you are convicted of, I'm OK with that. If you consider abortion, under any and all circumstances, to be murder, I have no argument with anyone on that point. Please allow me the religious freedom to see it somewhat differently.
I understand that is difficult. It is just as difficult for our brethren to accept righteous by faith, the law in Galatians, the nature of Christ, the daily, women's ordination, the interpretation of Daniel 11 and many many other issues that cause conflict and dispute among the brethren. How in the world will we ever come to that place where we are all "perfectly united"? Its a mystery...
Thanks for the heads-up, Ed. I saw a couple of presentations at ASI in 2014 regarding ending our church's involvement with abortion, and was very encouraged, and even copied them to my youtube channel. Now I see another lady is doing it. What is amazing, is that ASI gives these people a chance to get the word out.