It seems almost impossible to me that we are so close to the coming of Jesus Christ, and something as basic as this question is not understood by many of my fellow "conservative" Seventh-day Adventist Brethren.
I've known that my belief on the nature of Christ and Man has been at odds with the majority of fellow conservative Adventists all my life. For most of my life, they have been saying that since we are born sinners, Christ was born a sinner too. This stance is based on Hebrews 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
I'm aware that a few have said that we are born holy, since Christ was born holy.
However, I've always believed that both of these stances are mistaken, as Christ was born holy, filled with the Holy Spirit, the second Adam. In contrast, since Adam's fall, all of us are born sinners. There is nothing holy in us at all.
Now I've been made aware that many conservatives have shifted to a "clean slate" stance. They are pushing the idea that we are born neither sinner nor righteous, but with a "clean slate". This stance is based on 1John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This "third way" seems to me to be even more problematic than the previous error, as it implies that if you just make right choices all your life, you will go to heaven. It also seems to be saying that Jesus isn't absolutely necessary for salvation, but they say that it is only with his help that right choices can be made.
A famous conservative scholar even wrote this in reply to me recently: "No one needs forgiveness unless they sin. But all who possess a fallen nature need supernatural power to keep from sinning. Therefore all, whether or not they need forgiveness, need a Savior."
This is utter heresy to me, as I believe that you must be born of the water and spirit (born again) in order to go to heaven. No matter how perfect you've lived you life, no matter if you are as perfect as Job, or as righteous as John the Baptist's parents were, you absolutely must experience the new birth in order to go to heaven.
What do you think, or more importantly, what do the words of God tell us?
Jesus loved the children. He remembered that He was once a child, and His benevolent countenance won the affections of the little ones. They loved to play around Him, and to stroke that loving face with their innocent hands. When the Hebrew mothers brought their babes to be blessed by the dear Saviour the disciples deemed the errand of too little importance to interrupt His teachings. But Jesus read the earnest longing of those mothers' hearts, and checking His disciples, He said, "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto Me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." {FE 68.4}
Jesus loved the children. He remembered that he was once a child, and his benevolent countenance won the affections of the little ones. They loved to play around him, and to stroke that loving face with their innocent hands. When the Hebrew mothers brought their babes to be blessed by the dear Saviour, the disciples deemed the errand of too little importance to interrupt his teachings. But Jesus read the earnest longing of those mothers' hearts, and checking his disciples, he said, "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven." {RH, March 21, 1882 par. 14}
Parents, you have a work to do for your children which no other can do. You cannot shift your responsibilities upon another. The fathers' duty to his children cannot be transferred to the mother. If she performs her own duty, she has burden enough to bear. Only by working in unison, can the father and mother accomplish the work which God has committed to their hands. {RH, March 21, 1882 par. 15}
That time is worse than lost to parents and children which is devoted to the acquirement of wealth, while mental improvement and moral culture are neglected. Earthly treasures must pass away; but nobility of character, moral worth, will endure forever. If the work of parents be well done, it will through eternity testify of their wisdom and faithfulness. Those who tax their purses and their ingenuity to the utmost to provide for their households costly apparel and dainty food, or to maintain them in ignorance of useful labor, will be repaid only by the pride, envy, willfulness, and disrespect of their spoiled children. {RH, March 21, 1882 par. 16}
The young need to have a firm barrier built up from their infancy between them and the world, that its corrupting influence may not affect them. Parents must exercise increasing watchfulness, that their children be not lost to God. If it were considered as important that the young possess a beautiful character and amiable disposition as it is that they imitate the fashions of the world in dress and deportment, we would see hundreds where there is one today coming upon the stage of active life prepared to exert an ennobling influence upon society. {RH, March 21, 1882 par. 17}
The parents' work of education, instruction, and discipline underlies every other. The efforts of the best teachers must often bear little fruit, if fathers and mothers fail to act their part with faithfulness. God's word must ever be their guide. We do not endeavor to present a new line of duty. We set before all the teachings of that word by which our work must be judged, and we inquire, Is this the standard which we as Christian parents are endeavoring to reach? {RH, March 21, 1882 par. 18}
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Or should the question be born in sin = 7 sop hits
1. Seth was a worthy character, and was to take the place of Abel in right doing. Yet he was a son of Adam like sinful Cain, and inherited from the nature of Adam no more natural goodness than did Cain. He was born in sin; but by the grace of God, in receiving the faithful instructions of his father Adam, he honored God in doing his will. He separated himself from the corrupt descendants of Cain, and labored, as Abel would have done had he lived, to turn the minds of sinful men to revere and obey God. {1SP 60.2}
2. Seth was a worthy character, and was to take the place of Abel in right doing. Yet he was a son of Adam like sinful Cain, and inherited from the nature of Adam no more natural goodness than did Cain. He was born in sin, but by the grace of God, in receiving the faithful instructions of his father Adam, he honored God in doing his will. He separated himself from the corrupt descendants of Cain, and labored, as Abel would have done had he lived, to turn the minds of sinful men to revere and obey God. {3SG 53.3}
3. Repeat - {SR 57.1}
4. When Christ was upon this earth, the people flocked to hear Him. So simple and plain were His words that the most unlearned among the people could understand Him, and His hearers listened as if spellbound. This enraged the scribes and Pharisees. They were filled with envy because the people listened so attentively to the words of this new Teacher. They determined to break His hold upon the multitudes. They began by attacking His character, saying that He was born in sin, and that He cast out devils through the prince of the devils. Thus were fulfilled the words "They hated me without a cause" (John 15:25; cf. Psalm 69:4). The Jewish leaders maligned and persecuted the One who is chiefest among ten thousand and altogether lovely. {UL 325.3}
5. He who came in human flesh, and submitted to a life of humiliation, was the Majesty of heaven, the Prince of life, and yet the wise men of the earth, the princes and rulers, and even his own nation, knew him not. They did not recognize him as the long-looked-for Messiah. Notwithstanding mighty miracles did show forth themselves in him, notwithstanding he opened the eyes of the blind, and raised the dead to life, Christ suffered the hatred and abuse of the people he came to bless. They regarded him as a sinner, and accused him of casting out devils through the prince of devils. The circumstances of his birth were mysterious, and were remarked upon by the rulers. They charged him with being born in sin. The Prince of heaven was insulted because of the corrupt minds and the sinful, blasphemous unbelief of men. What a baleful thing is unbelief! It originated with the first great apostate, and to what fearful lengths it will lead all who enter upon its path is seen in the Jews' rejection of their Messiah. {RH, September 5, 1899 par. 3}
6. Repeat of 1,2,3 - {ST, February 20, 1879 par. 1}
7. Repeat of # 5 - {5MR 251.2}
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Lawful prey = 16 hits
#1. A few in every generation from Adam resisted his every artifice and stood forth as noble representatives of what it was in the power of man to do and to be, while Christ should co-operate with human efforts, to help man in overcoming the power of Satan. Enoch and Elijah are the correct representatives of what the race might be through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan was greatly disturbed because these noble, holy men were untainted amid the moral pollution surrounding them, perfecting righteous characters, and accounted worthy for translation to heaven. As they had stood forth in moral power, in noble uprightness, overcoming Satan's temptations, he could not bring them under the dominion of death. He triumphed that he had power to overcome Moses with his temptations, and that he could mar his illustrious character and lead him to the sin of taking to himself glory before the people which belonged to God. {Con 26.1}
Christ resurrected Moses, and took him to heaven. This enraged Satan, and he accused the Son of God of invading his dominion by robbing the grave of his lawful prey. Jude says of the resurrection of Moses, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." {Con 26.2}
When Satan succeeds in tempting men whom God has especially honored to commit grievous sins, he triumphs; for he has gained to himself a great victory and has done harm to the kingdom of Christ. {Con 26.3}
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#2. Children who have not experienced the cleansing power of Jesus are the lawful prey of the enemy, and the evil angels have easy access to them. Some parents are careless and suffer their children to grow up with but little restraint. Parents have a great work to do in the matter of correcting and training their children, and in bringing them to God and claiming His blessing upon them. By the faithful and untiring efforts of the parents, and the blessing and grace bestowed upon the children in response to the prayers of the parents, the power of the evil angels may be broken and a sanctifying influence shed upon the children. Thus the powers of darkness will be driven back. {CT 118.2}
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#3. Even in this life, the Christian has One upon whom to lean for support, who will help him bear all his trials. Yet the sinner has to bear his trials alone. He goes down into the grave suffering remorse under darkness, bound by Satan, for he is his lawful prey. . . . {OHC 201.4}
If there is any one who should be continually grateful, it is the follower of Christ. If there is any one who enjoys real happiness, even in this life, it is the faithful Christian. . . . If we appreciate or have any sense of how dearly our salvation was purchased, anything which we may call sacrifice will sink away into insignificance. {OHC 201.5}
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#4. Some, I was shown, gratify their curiosity, and tamper with the Devil. They have no real faith in Spiritualism, and would start back with horror at the idea of being a medium. Yet they venture, and place themselves in a position where Satan can exercise his power upon them. They do not mean to enter deep into this work, but such know not what they are doing. They are venturing upon the Devil's ground, and are tempting him to control them. This powerful destroyer considers such his lawful prey, and will exercise his power upon them, and that against their will. When they wish to control themselves they cannot. They yielded their mind to Satan, and he holds them captive, and he will not release his claims. No power can deliver the ensnared soul but the power of God, in answer to the earnest prayers of his faithful followers. {4bSG 88.1}
I'm not into theories... while not putting my head in the sand, try and not let that kind of thing dominate my life... Only TRUTH will sanctify.
No I don't believe in original sin the way the RCC defines it. It is complex but I'll try and explain what I believe. Because of Adam, we have been separated from God. When we are born, we are separated from God and therefore, we must be born again. We are born in the image of Adam if you read the genealogies. Adam was born in the image of God. We are born with the propensity to sin. We do not however have to pay for Adam's sins but we are born separated from God regardless due to what Adam did. Adam gave this world over to Satan. We are born with a small measure of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born with the full measure of the Holy Spirit...that's the difference. Jesus never sinned but was tempted and he was pursued by Satan all His life. Jesus was born of Adam after the fall nature. He therefore had to go over all the ground that Adam did and have the victory for all of us. This is how we can also have the victory, only through Jesus because of what He did in His life and His shed blood for us.
Hope that makes sense. I believe that this is what the bible and original sop reflects. God would not ask us to do anything that we cannot do.... and Jesus has provided every opportunity to come to eternal life through Him.
Sounds pretty close to what the inspired words I've read say on the subject, NB, except the part about us being born with a small measure of the Holy Spirit. While God has implanted some kind of "enmity" between us and Satan, I've never read that we are born with the Holy Spirit. Could you give us any inspired words for that?
When you say Jesus was born "after the Fall nature", do you mean in the sense of physical nature, or spiritual? I would definitely agree with the physical aspect.
I've had many people tell me that my belief that Jesus was born sinless, but we are born sinners, would somehow give an unfair advantage to Jesus. That has always been an odd position from my point of view, because him being born sinless would seem to me to make it even more difficult for Jesus to maintain a pure, unspotted life than it would be if he were born a sinner like us.
Your comment, NB, about Adam giving this world "over to Satan" is very pertinent to this discussion, and one that is often overlooked. We are now born, by nature, "children of wrath". Without being born of water and the Spirit, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, no matter how perfectly we follow everything else that God says.
Ed, to be "born in sin", means we are born a "sinner" doesn't it?
Jesus had to keep His divine power squelched and painfully compressed, that does not sound like an advantage, also having no intercessor for Himself, not even sinning by a thought, does not sound like an advantage.
Being born with the defilement of sin, born with with any measure of Satan's nature within, having propensities to sin, not having any innocence ( no robe of light & none of God's image & nature within), and being born into the species condemned to die eternally because Adam brought such death upon all, THEN to top it off - soon after physical birth - committing any form of selfishness ( 1st temper tantrum ), sounds like being born into sin's kingdom and then entering into partnership with Satan & sin - to me.
Born in sin is broader that just being a sinner. Babies do not know light to reject, but they do know darkness to act out.
A subject deserving much more research. For the humanity of Jesus is the foundation of the Jones & waggoner 1888 message that EGW said was the start of the Loud Cry & drops of the Latter Rain in 1888.
Sounds pretty close to what the inspired words I've read say on the subject, NB, except the part about us being born with a small measureof the Holy Spirit. While God has implanted some kind of "enmity" between us and Satan, I've never read that we are born with the Holy Spirit. Could you give us any inspired words for that?
When you say Jesus was born "after the Fall nature", do you mean in the sense of physical nature, or spiritual? I would definitely agree with the physical aspect.
I've had many people tell me that my belief that Jesus was born sinless, but we are born sinners, would somehow give an unfair advantage to Jesus. That has always been an odd position from my point of view, because him being born sinless would seem to me to make it even more difficult for Jesus to maintain a pure, unspotted life than it would be if he were born a sinner like us.
Your comment, NB, about Adam giving this world "over to Satan" is very pertinent to this discussion, and one that is often overlooked. We are now born, by nature, "children of wrath". Without being born of water and the Spirit, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, no matter how perfectly we follow everything else that God says.
Ed, to be "born in sin", means we are born a "sinner" doesn't it?
our spiritual nature compared to Jesus:
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
The good news is that when we are born again by the Spirit will can also have the full indwelling.
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nature of Christ:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.