Who is God?

Date: May 26, 2022

RE: Who is God?

Date: May 26, 2022

Here is an example of how the Bible and the SOP make APPARENTLY conflicting statements.

EGW speaking of Christ in the tomb states that Divinity did not die, Christ's physical body died. Yet in another place she states that had Christ sinned, He would have never risen from the tomb, He would have "ceased to exist". So, can Divinity die, or not? Christ would have lost His Divinity had he sinned. Who would have taken it from him? God.

Date: May 27, 2022

Anonymous wrote:
Here is an example of how the Bible and the SOP make APPARENTLY conflicting statements.
EGW speaking of Christ in the tomb states that Divinity did not die, Christ's physical body died. Yet in another place she states that had Christ sinned, He would have never risen from the tomb, He would have "ceased to exist". So, can Divinity die, or not? Christ would have lost His Divinity had he sinned. Who would have taken it from him? God.

I dont remember reading that about the consequences of Christ sinning. Can you please supply the quote.

Date: May 27, 2022

"The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished." Ms. 81, 1893, p. 11.

Date: May 27, 2022

"Remember that Christ risked all; 'tempted like as we are,' he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul." The General Conference Bulletin, pg (639). December 1, 1895 par. 22 art. B

What love is this, that the Son of God was willing to risk even his own eternal existence.

Date: May 29, 2022

But God knew Jesus would be victorious!! Otherwise Enoch Elijah and Moses would have not gone to heaven to stay there. It was by Jesus sacrifice that they remain. So sweet the great sacrifice is for all of us.

Date: May 29, 2022

God (Christ's Father) of course knows all things! That being the case, what need is there for prophecy? As the end is already known, then "predestination" must be a thing?

Here's the thing: the angels don't know. The angels, along with the unfallen worlds, watched with intense interest, WHAT WOULD Jesus do? HOW would this controversy turn out? What if He failed? Like every human, Jesus had to make choices, He had at all times free will. He could have sinned, and then what? The horror of contemplating such an outcome!

I've heard it said Jesus Himself does not know the day and hour of His return, but the Father only. It is clear from the testimony of Ellen White that Christ would have, should have returned even BEFORE 1888! The 1888 message was the "last hope" to reach God's people. When that final message was rejected, it was the final "nail in the coffin". By 1901 Ellen White knew, that God's people had turned back into the wilderness. How long oh Lord? How long will your people continue in their rebellion? God, of course, knows, but the angels don't, Christ Himself does not know. He could know, but He submits to His Father's will and desires, God alone knows the day and the hour. No doubt the angels, and Christ, were immeasurably disappointed when it became clear, that the great controversy would continue beyond Ellen White's lifetime.

Date: May 29, 2022

Everyone has free choice. But God already knows what choices we have/will make. He knows the end from the beginning.

when Jesus was on earth He didnt know the day or hour. But now He does.

James White did a great in depth sermon about this very point. It says that only the Father will make the announcement of the day and hour of Jesus coming. This happens when the sky is rolled back as a scroll revealing the Law. He makes the announcement to the Saints that come up that died during the time of the 3rd angels message.

Date: May 29, 2022

James White understood that Jesus DOES NOT KNOW the day or the hour UNTIL it is announced by His Father. It has not yet been announced, and won't be until AFTER probation has closed. Then and only then, will Jesus, the angels, the unfallen worlds, and humanity know the very time of Christ's return.

Webmaster: It is sad, that like most SDA today you deny that God is the Father of Christ. I believe what the Bible says, I believe what Ellen White says. In both cases, there is abundant evidence that (as Ellen White clearly states): "God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God." There is no room for a mistake on this point, it is amazing how something so simple is so easily misunderstood. Laodicea...

God is not some "essence", with no body, comprised of three divine individuals. God has a body, and a personality, He showed His backside to Moses. He "begat" a Son in eternity, before anything was made before "time" began, which is an accurate definition of "eternity". What is "time" to a being with no beginning or no end? Jesus, like His Father, had no "beginning" and He will not have an end. Jesus is the exact image of His Father, thus, He too is "eternal". Fundamental Belief #2 MUST be changed, and it will be. Count on it! God's very reputation has been slandered, dismissed, and belittled by FB#2. This is the work of the devil, it will not stand.

Date: May 30, 2022

Nb wrote:
Everyone has free choice. But God already knows what choices we have/will make. He knows the end from the beginning.

when Jesus was on earth He didnt know the day or hour. But now He does.

James White did a great in depth sermon about this very point. It says that only the Father will make the announcement of the day and hour of Jesus coming. This happens when the sky is rolled back as a scroll revealing the Law. He makes the announcement to the Saints that come up that died during the time of the 3rd angels message.

Jesus is One with the Father and is aware of all things now that He is in the heavenly sanctuary.

Date: May 31, 2022

It is the voice of God, Christ's Father, that announces the day and hour of His Son's return. "But the day and the hour of His coming Christ has not revealed. He stated plainly to His disciples that He Himself could not make known the day or the hour of His second appearing. Had He been at liberty to reveal this, why need He have exhorted them to maintain an attitude of constant expectancy? There are those who claim to know the very day and hour of our Lords appearing. Very earnest are they in mapping out [BEGIN P.633] the future. But the Lord has warned them off the ground they occupy. The exact time of the second coming of the Son of man is Gods mystery. {DA 632.4}

It is the Father of Christ who announces the day and hour of His Son's return, not Jesus Himself. However, note that Desire of Ages states, "Had He been at liberty to reveal this" is interesting! Does this mean that Jesus did know even while on earth exactly when He would return? Or that He didn't know and He honored His Father by not asking, at any point in His eternal life? Opinions on this vary, but most conclude He did not know. Truly, I am not sure one way or the other, whether He knew and kept quiet, or He has never known and will not know until it is announced.

Date: May 31, 2022

I overlooked this part of the statement From The Desire of Ages on the day and hour of Christ's return:

"The exact time of the second coming of the Son of man is Gods mystery." This brings us back to the original question: WHO is God? Ellen White tells us who God is: "God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God." Testimonies for the Church, Volume 8. 1855; (268).

SDA concludes that God is an essence, a spirit, not a personality, but a concept of three divine beings. As Kellogg stated it: God is in the flowers, the heavens, the trees, and the earth. The Church states, without hesitation that Jesus is "role-playing". They mean to say exactly what they say! That Jesus is not literally the Son of God, it's just an act He has been playing out. Since when? I suppose since before anything was created. That being the case, the angels, and the unfallen worlds, also know that Jesus isn't really the Son of God, He's just pretending to be. Let. That. Sink. In. If you accept this travesty then the Bible doesn't really mean what it says! The Bible clearly says; that Jesus IS the Son of God. But is He really? The question remains: IS Jesus the Son of God, REALLY, or is He pretending to be? In short: WHO IS GOD? I believe in the Desire of Ages statement Ellen White is entirely aware of exactly who God is when she declares, that He is the Father of Christ. The mystery of His Son's return belongs to Him.

Date: May 31, 2022

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The One and Only Son.

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

God has many sons, but only one begotten son - Jesus Christ.

1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Date: Jun 8, 2022

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given... his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father..." Isaiah 9:6

Jesus has a right to bear His Father's name, it is within Him. My name is the same as my father's. But I am not my father, I am my father's son. Jesus is not God, He is God's Son. Through and by way of His Father, all things were created and are held together. Does this make Jesus inferior in any way to His Father? No! God has ordained that His Son be equal to Himself in all regards. Jesus thought it not robbery to be called the "everlasting Father", or the "mighty God". While it is not robbery for me to use my father's name, I am not my father, I am his son. At the risk of having the crowd pick up stones to slay me, as they did toward Jesus, I proclaim that Jesus is NOT God, He is God's Son. Lucifer understood this, the war in heaven was not against the Father's son, it was against the one by whom ALL things originated, Christ's Father. God has ordained that His Son have life of Himself, unborrowed, underived. These are aspects of divinity, an exact "image" of His Father. In a similar manner, the Holy Spirit is divine, but He is not God, He is God's Spirit, His representative. Jesus, being equal with His Father is also represented by the Holy Spirit. We, God's Church, need to restore the dignity and position of the Father, which in 1980, with a change in the Fundamental Belief #2, was removed. We need to return to the Early SDA Fundamental Principles. The Father, His representative, and His Son.

Date: Jun 8, 2022

Club427 wrote:
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given... his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father..." Isaiah 9:6
Jesus has a right to bear His Father's name, it is within Him. My name is the same as my father's. But I am not my father, I am my father's son. Jesus is not God, He is God's Son. Through and by way of His Father, all things were created and are held together. Does this make Jesus inferior in any way to His Father? No! God has ordained that His Son be equal to Himself in all regards. Jesus thought it not robbery to be called the "everlasting Father", or the "mighty God". While it is not robbery for me to use my father's name, I am not my father, I am his son. At the risk of having the crowd pick up stones to slay me, as they did toward Jesus, I proclaim that Jesus is NOT God, He is God's Son. Lucifer understood this, the war in heaven was not against the Father's son, it was against the one by whom ALL things originated, Christ's Father. God has ordained that His Son have life of Himself, unborrowed, underived. These are aspects of divinity, an exact "image" of His Father. In a similar manner, the Holy Spirit is divine, but He is not God, He is God's Spirit, His representative. Jesus, being equal with His Father is also represented by the Holy Spirit. We, God's Church, need to restore the dignity and position of the Father, which in 1980, with a change in the Fundamental Belief #2, was removed. We need to return to the Early SDA Fundamental Principles. The Father, His representative, and His Son.

There are several core issues here.

In the first place, the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy say repeatedly that Jesus Christ is God.

Given that this is so, it seems the most productive to go deeper with the issue, rather than simply denying what is clearly and repeatedly stated.

One way of going deeper is to consider the quote below, that is very similar to a quote posted above. The key phrase is "Christ ... is truly God in infinity, but not in personality".

This suggests a way of resolving these kinds of disagreements -- when we say that Christ is God, we do not mean that the Son and Father are literally the same person, but rather that they share a particular set of divine properties, that define what is meant by "God".

The same is true for modern conservative Bible translations like the ESV and NASB, that say for John 1:1 that "the Word was God". This is an unequivocal statement that Christ is God, but again, we are not saying that the Son and the Father are literally the same person, but instead, that they share certain properties that define "God".

I don't think it does any good to keep denying these clearcut statements. Instead of doing so, I would suggest going deeper in study, and asking how to reconcile such statements.

I am a long-time Bible and Spirit of Prophecy student, and I've found it very useful over the years to follow a rule of "talk less and and study more". The Bible and SOP have lots of material on this subject, and my best guess would be that it would pay to go deeper in studying what is being said.

I have one additional comment. I am probably the person who has posted the most frequently to this forum in the last six months. I am finding that the repeated comments about Fundamental Belief #2 are wearing a bit thin, and because of this, I personally am on my way out. I know from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy that the issue is different than what is being represented here, and I don't have any desire to keep going over the same ground day in and day out, grinding the same axe over and over.

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The apparently weak soul, who with a contrite, trusting spirit takes God at His word, and with a sense of his unworthiness asks for help, will be given grace to win victory after victory, and to gain the eternal weight of glory in the future life. The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality. He has wrought out the righteousness that enables human beings to overcome every assault of Satan. He will impute His righteousness to the believing saint who walks as He walked when on earth. {UL 367.4}

Date: Jun 8, 2022

Jesus is to be worshipped. He is God and One with the Father. They share the Throne in heaven.

Date: Jun 8, 2022

1 SG 22

I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father, his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon. That through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

Date: Jun 9, 2022

"No text of Scripture specifically says that God is three Persons: but theological reasoning on the basis of biblical principles leads to that conclusion." Biblical Research Institute Release9, 'God in 3 Personsin Theology', May 2015, p. 20.

"We ought not guess at anything", says Ellen White. To "assume" is to "guess".

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

refulgent wrote: " I am probably the person who has posted the most frequently to this forum in the last six months. I am finding that the repeated comments about Fundamental Belief #2 are wearing a bit thin, and because of this, I personally am on my way out."

I appreciate your writing very much. You always stick close to the Bible and SOP. If you quit posting because some anti-Trinity people are sent by Satan to cause division among God's people, how would Jesus get praise and honor and glory from that?

Please stay and post.

Daniel

Date: Jun 14, 2022

The issue of WHO God is has nothing to do with trinity issues. There are three members of the God Head, but only one of them IS God. The Father begat His Son. He ordained that His Son be eternal and divine, He is in the exact IMAGE of His Father, with all the same powers of divinity. He thought it not robbery to be called by His Father's name. All of the above does not make Jesus His Father, He always has been and remains His Father's Son. The Father's representative, His Holy Spirit, also represents the Father's Son. The Holy Spirit is divine, as is the Son, but neither of them are God.

All this brings us back to the original question: WHO is God? Those who believe there are three gods, not one, deny the clear statements of the Bible. God by committee is a Catholic doctrine, a doctrine embraced by Kellogg and the majority of Laodicea today! Of course, they don't see what is obvious to any thinking man. Their delusion is deeply embedded! Ellen White and the pioneers were not confused over who God is. Today? Hardly one in a 100 SDA know who God is, this website being no exception.

Date: Jun 14, 2022

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17). Jesus claimed that His Father was not only His Father but also His God. Believe the bible, just as it is written. Jesus is not roleplaying, He is literally the Son of His Father, who is the one God of the Bible, from whom all things originated.

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

Club427, You quoted Ellen White approvingly on a different thread: "All that is attributed to the Father Himself is attributed to Christ."

So that means Jesus is God. Jesus is The Almighty.

Date: Jun 18, 2022

Jesus told Ellen White, He is the exact image of His Father. This is not complicated, Jesus is God's Son. Jesus is fully divine, eternal, and yet begotten of His Father. I carry the same name as my father, but I am not my father, I am his son. There is ONE God, the Father of Christ. ALL things came from the Father. There are NOT three gods. SDA, since 1980 has been and remains: polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism characterizes virtually all religions other than Judaism, Christianity. How do SDA get around this three god problem? They say that three are one and this one concept of god has no physical body, no personality, is like the dew of the morning, is in every living thing. This god is an invented idea, it cannot be found in the Bible or the SOP. THOSE WHO ACCEPT THIS FALSE DOCTRINE KNOW NOT WHO GOD IS.

EarlySDA · Status: Offline

Club427, You have now rejected your earlier approval of what Ellen White wrote on this subject.

You will not be allowed to spread more of your anti-Jesus-is-God error from Satan on this forum.

Please repent, and believe in Jesus as God in the flesh.