Pacifism

Date: Aug 11, 2016

Pacifism

Date: Aug 11, 2016

The two branches of the SDA Reform Movement trace their origins to what happened in World War I, and the history is interesting to study. It might be worth delving into the details of what happened, and then ask if the same issues are still relevant today.

One further possible way to approach this is to consider the quote below, written in reference to the Civil War in the USA.

It's worth asking whether it's possible to both obey God and engage in military service in a given context. For example, what if it's an emergency, and you are asked to do something on Sabbath? What if you are ordered to go out and kill people?

Or suppose that you're a military surgeon, and you're skilled at patching up people so that they can get back to the front lines. Is this a good or bad business to be in?

I saw that it is our duty in every case to obey the laws of our land, unless they conflict with the higher law which God spoke with an audible voice from Sinai, and afterward engraved on stone with His own finger. "I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people." He who has God's law written in the heart will obey God rather than men, and will sooner disobey all men than deviate in the least from the commandment of God. God's people, taught by the inspiration of truth, and led by a good conscience to live by every word of God, will take His law, written in their hearts, as the only authority which they can acknowledge or consent to obey. The wisdom and authority of the divine law are supreme. {1T 361.1}

I was shown that God's people, who are His peculiar treasure, cannot engage in this perplexing war, for it is opposed to every principle of their faith. In the army they cannot obey the truth and at the same time obey the requirements of their officers. There would be a continual violation of conscience. Worldly men are governed by worldly principles. They can appreciate no other. Worldly policy and public opinion comprise the principle of action that governs them and leads them to practice the form of rightdoing. But God's people cannot be governed by these motives. The words and commands of God, written in the soul, are spirit and life, and there is power in them to bring into subjection and enforce obedience. The ten precepts of Jehovah are the foundation of all righteous and good laws. Those who love God's commandments will conform to every good law of the land. But if the requirements of the rulers are such as conflict with the laws of God, the only question to be settled is: Shall we obey God, or man? {1T 361.2}

Date: Aug 11, 2016

we have the example of desmond doss

he served but never carried a gun

Date: Aug 11, 2016

nb wrote:
we have the example of desmond doss
he served but never carried a gun

NB, thank you for your observation. Desmond Doss never carried a gun because he conscientiously objected to bearing arms. However, he did not conscientiously object to participating in military service, therefore he would not be called a total pacifist but rather a non-combatant.

The issue I am grappling with is conscientious objection to any involvement in war and the support for that position from the Bible and SOP.

Date: Aug 11, 2016

Vigilantius wrote:
The two branches of the SDA Reform Movement trace their origins to what happened in World War I, and the history is interesting to study. It might be worth delving into the details of what happened, and then ask if the same issues are still relevant today.
One further possible way to approach this is to consider the quote below, written in reference to the Civil War in the USA.
It's worth asking whether it's possible to both obey God and engage in military service in a given context. For example, what if it's an emergency, and you are asked to do something on Sabbath? What if you are ordered to go out and kill people?
Or suppose that you're a military surgeon, and you're skilled at patching up people so that they can get back to the front lines. Is this a good or bad business to be in?
I saw that it is our duty in every case to obey the laws of our land, unless they conflict with the higher law which God spoke with an audible voice from Sinai, and afterward engraved on stone with His own finger. "I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people." He who has God's law written in the heart will obey God rather than men, and will sooner disobey all men than deviate in the least from the commandment of God. God's people, taught by the inspiration of truth, and led by a good conscience to live by every word of God, will take His law, written in their hearts, as the only authority which they can acknowledge or consent to obey. The wisdom and authority of the divine law are supreme. {1T 361.1}
I was shown that God's people, who are His peculiar treasure, cannot engage in this perplexing war, for it is opposed to every principle of their faith. In the army they cannot obey the truth and at the same time obey the requirements of their officers. There would be a continual violation of conscience. Worldly men are governed by worldly principles. They can appreciate no other. Worldly policy and public opinion comprise the principle of action that governs them and leads them to practice the form of rightdoing. But God's people cannot be governed by these motives. The words and commands of God, written in the soul, are spirit and life, and there is power in them to bring into subjection and enforce obedience. The ten precepts of Jehovah are the foundation of all righteous and good laws. Those who love God's commandments will conform to every good law of the land. But if the requirements of the rulers are such as conflict with the laws of God, the only question to be settled is: Shall we obey God, or man? {1T 361.2}

Thank you Vigilantius for your response. I have read a lot about the history of the Reform Movement. Yes, the issue of military service is still relevant as we face the possibility of war in the future.

My concern is that the Civil War quote ,which you have provided ,does not seem to match the Basel quote (see below). This raises the question of whether Ellen White's unpublished writings may be considered inspired or whether we should only take evidence from published works to support our position.

We have just said farewell to three of our responsible men in the office who were summoned by the government to serve for three weeks of drill. It was a very important stage of our work in the publishing house, but the government calls do not accommodate themselves to our convenience. They demand that young men whom they have accepted as soldiers shall not neglect the exercise and drill essential for soldier service. We were glad to see that these men with their regimentals had tokens of honor for faithfulness in their work. They were trustworthy young men. {2SM 335.1}

These did not go from choice, but because the laws of their nation required this. We gave them a word of encouragement to be found true soldiers of the cross of Christ. Our prayers will follow these young men, that the angels of God may go with them and guard them from every temptation. Manuscript 33, 1886. (Written from Basel, Switzerland, Sept. 2, 1886.) {2SM 335.2}

Date: Aug 11, 2016

Sorry, the Anonymous above is Shireen.

Date: Aug 12, 2016

Sabbathkeepers now cannot expect this, and should not, upon any consideration, engage in this terrible war. They have nothing to hope for. The desolating power of God is upon the earth to rend and destroy; the inhabitants of the earth are appointed to the sword, famine, and pestilence.--Ms 5, 1862, pp. 1, 2.

Thou shalt not kill comes to mind...

there are so many evil forces working now that one cannot trust the reasons for war anymore...

If I were asked, I guess, I would refuse to go to war for any reason unless God would dictate such.

959cp

Date: Aug 12, 2016

nb wrote:
Sabbathkeepers now cannot expect this, and should not, upon any consideration, engage in this terrible war. They have nothing to hope for. The desolating power of God is upon the earth to rend and destroy; the inhabitants of the earth are appointed to the sword, famine, and pestilence.--Ms 5, 1862, pp. 1, 2.

Thou shalt not kill comes to mind...
there are so many evil forces working now that one cannot trust the reasons for war anymore...
If I were asked, I guess, I would refuse to go to war for any reason unless God would dictate such.
959cp

Thank you NB, for sharing the quote and your thoughts.

Date: Aug 13, 2016

I wouldnt have enlisted knowing what I know now. I have a better understanding now of the politics and corruption of war, and the endless deaths of men, women, children. I look at what I could have done instead of my three years of military service. Instead of being trained on how to take human lives, I couldve been receiving the training that I later got at Amazing Facts Center of Evangelism--training on how to save lives. My advice to young men that are considering joining the military is to consider two things:

Are you willing to compromise your relationship with Christ and His Word?
Does the Great Commission (which was given by Christ Himself to "Go teach and baptize") fit with the military's commission of always placing the mission first no matter what that looks like?

http://www.fulcrum7.com/blog/2016/8/11/the-sabbath-vs-the-army

Date: Aug 14, 2016

Shireen wrote:

I wouldnt have enlisted knowing what I know now. I have a better understanding now of the politics and corruption of war, and the endless deaths of men, women, children. I look at what I could have done instead of my three years of military service. Instead of being trained on how to take human lives, I couldve been receiving the training that I later got at Amazing Facts Center of Evangelism--training on how to save lives. My advice to young men that are considering joining the military is to consider two things:
Are you willing to compromise your relationship with Christ and His Word?
Does the Great Commission (which was given by Christ Himself to "Go teach and baptize") fit with the military's commission of always placing the mission first no matter what that looks like?
http://www.fulcrum7.com/blog/2016/8/11/the-sabbath-vs-the-army

Good points

Date: Aug 26, 2016

While voluntarily entering the military is obviously going against God:s will, the matter of a draft is much more complex.

God has set up nations and given rulers the express authority to conduct war.

We are to obey the govt. unless their orders conflict with God:s orders.

There are many things you can do in the military that do not directly involve killing the enemy.

I remember somewhere the Holy Spirit saying thru Ellen White basically that we are to remain quiet on this issue, and each person is to go to God for orders on what to do when the time comes. I also remember reading in a magazine once that in WWI, they inspected the soldiers: guns, and approximately only 15% had even been fired. It also said that this figure is up to around 50% now. So even holding a gun in a war situation is not, in itself, a sin. But using that gun to kill others is against God:s will it seems.

Date: Jun 20, 2017

Shireen wrote:
I'm struggling with the issue of military service. Through reading I have established that the International Missionary Society and the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement take a pacifist position regarding war i.e. no participation in military service. The Seventh-day Adventist Church leaves it up to the individual's conscience.
Matthew 5:9 would appear to support the pacifist position. However, I'm confused when it comes to Ellen White's writings because of her positive comments in Basel when young men obeyed government orders to participate in a 2 week drill.
Do you have a definitive SOP quote that supports the pacifist position?

The information contained in this letter should be considered in the light of three important facts:

1. The letter does not specify the kind of work that was assigned to those three men, but in the Swiss Army those drafted were free to choose the medical department. We quote from The Review and Herald:

"In Switzerland Sabbathkeepers have the choice of joining the sanitary corps, in which a person is exempt from bearing arms; but the duties to be performed on the Sabbath are not such as are proper for God's holy day." RH Nov. 3, 1885.

2. In this letter there is no word sanctioning active participation in war, or combatant service, or any kind of commandmentbreaking. The three young men who had been summoned for a drill were encouraged "to be found true soldiers of the cross of Christ" and admonished to resist "every temptation." The farewell that was given them with this specific advice was not a suggestion for them to turn away from, but to remain faithful to, the law of God. Therefore, we see no contradiction between 1T 361 and 2SM 335. The Spirit of Prophecy is always consistent.

3. This letter is dated September 2, 1883 (not 1886). On September 2, 1883, Sister White was not in Switzerland; she was attending a camp meeting in Vermont, U.S.A. If this is actually her letter, written from Basel, Switzerland, on September 2, 1886 (as it appears in 2SM 335), then she misdated it by mistake. And this is what most probably happened. But the assumption that Sister White just wrote out the dictated translation of a report received from Switzerland in 1883 seems to have some plausibility, too. Some day we may receive more information about this manuscript.

http://sdarm.org/publications/good-way-series/conscientious-objection-or-combatancy-0

Date: Jun 20, 2017

(The anonymous above was me).

Terminology has changed over time, but the fact is that the church has changed its position from conscientious objection (not participating in war at all, certainly not bearing arms) to permitting conscientious cooperation (participating in war, but not necessarily bearing arms).

Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts) has promoted the Desmond Doss story. He was a noncombatant (not bearing arms) who participated in war (conscientious co-operator). There seems to be many Adventists today who support this position. This is reflected in comments at Fulcrum 7. http://www.fulcrum7.com/blog/2017/5/30/the-hacksaw-ridge-hypocrisy