The Kentucky clerk, who was held in contempt of court for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses.....
What are your reactions to this? As sdas what do the implications tell us?
The Supreme Court broke the law. They are not allowed to pass or make new laws. That is the job of congress. Makes me wonder as to how the constitution will be changed for the enactment of the NSL. It may just be done by the courts and not have to be initiated by Congress at all!! Yipes!
Another lessor part of the problem is that the law was changed after she was already in her office. Most laws will have a period where there is no action and then it takes effect in the next year. At the end of her term, the state office can decide what they want to do with her. Maybe a transfer or different position. Seems to me that this could have been handled in a discreet way but for some reason it went public and media got involved. And, why aren't the states given this ruling and it rushed to the Federal court instead?
Our government has changed. Originally it was intent on keeping moral laws. Now it seems anything can happen and we know where this is going. Right now it seems like our government wants citizens that will follow whatever they say no matter what the law. When NSL comes on board, we will be exposed as the world is not our standard.
Seems to me that the justices are immoral in their thinking to pass something like this and probably anti-constitution to do an override like this. We are far from what the founding father's envisioned.
One thing that I've been thinking about is whether the Sunday law debate and enforcement takes place in a moral climate similar to what we have today, or whether there is a preliminary shift toward outward morality before the Sunday issue kicks in.
It is certainly plausible to believe that the Supreme Court decision in June has a direct bearing on final events in this world, and I believe this myself.
However, I've not been able to fully reconcile this development with what the SOP says. For example, GC 592 indicates that Bible Sabbath keepers will be seen as breaking down the moral restraints of society. The problem today is that those moral restraints don't exist, and it seems like a preliminary crisis, triggered by huge calamities of some type, would be needed to push people toward a much more conservative orientation, at least outwardly. So the extremes of immorality will serve as a trigger to push people to the other extreme.
Another angle here has to do with ancient Israel. DA 28 and PK 705 say that they were cured of overt idolatry by the Babylonian captivity. This cure does not necessarily imply that they were better off, because they starting shifting toward Pharisaism and an emphasis on external religion.
Maybe the key point here is a willingness of most people to go with the flow. Right now the flow is toward gross immorality, and at some future point, the flow will be toward outward piety.
In either case, God's true followers will be in trouble.
The nation was in sufficient "moral decline" in the 1800's for the Lord to return. I base this one the many and varied quotes from Ellen White concerning His return, in HER day. That should have, would have, happened, but it didn't. Why? She said "why" in 1901, that because of our "insubordination" we may have to say here longer. BEFORE she said that, in 1901, her comments on this topic were warnings. IF, we don't turn around, we must turn around, the message of 1888 was to help us turn around. But the Lord could have returned even BEFORE 1888. That message, of righteousness by faith, was the last gasp of warning after warning that all things were ready, the return was imminent, He was only waiting for his people to be ready.
He didn't need the internet, or TV, or a technology revolution for the gospel to go to all the world in the 1800's. He didn't need society to get "bad enough", it WAS bad enough already. He didn't need more prophecy to be fulfilled, the last end time events were ready to wrap up in 1888 with the proposed National Sunday law, by Senator Blair. That's the bill A.T. Jones argued against. Jones didn't stop the bill from passing, the Lord did, because His people weren't ready. Que the 1901 counsel from the prophet, "we may have to remain here longer". That's when we entered the wilderness, everything was put on hold, no prophecy has been fulfilled since that time. Just as no prophecy was fulfilled when His children wandered for forty years. No record of what transpired during that time exists, because that time was not relevant, just wandering around in circles. Like we have been doing for decade after decade now.
"Some food for worms", remember that quote? One of many that leave no doubt He would have, should have, returned in HER lifetime. Like Nineveh, that statement was conditional, IF His people were ready, THEN He would return. Jonah didn't tell Nineveh "IF", but that turned out to be case, they repented, and the "IF" became a factor. Ellen White didn't say "IF", like Jonah she said He WOULD return. Unlike Jonah, she didn't get an attitude when it didn't happen, she accepted it, "we" blew it, and put His return on hold.
WW1, no fulfillment of prophecy, add to that the Great Depression, WW2, the many wars since, etc. etc. What prophecy do ANY of these events fulfill? None... Russia fell, we TRIED to see prophecy there, but nothing happened. 9-11 has come and gone, prophecy fulfilled? Some think so, some thought surely WW1 or WW2 or this or that event,,,, but, nothing happened.
As a result, we see a continuing downhill run of moral decline and other sins of the Nation. This is of course to be expected. And it is correct that at some point, "ready or not" that decline will reach such a state that our cup will be full and our Lord will have no choice but to put a stop to it, "ready or not".
Nineveh was not dependent on any prophecies being fulfilled, but WE were. Martin Luther and Paul knew He could not return before certain prophecies were fulfilled, they were correct, He could not until then. Then it follows, if He could have returned in the 1800's, all pertinent prophecies MUST have been fulfilled in the 1800's! And they were, just as Uriah Smith reported them and just as our people, to a man and woman, believed they were fulfilled. The LAST significant "time line" prophecy to be fulfilled was finished in 1856. BEFORE 1856, the Lord could NOT have returned, because prophecy still existed that had not yet been fulfilled. Therefore, it was only AFTER 1856 that His return could be spoken of as "at the door", in her lifetime, those living at that time could have, would have, should have been eyewitness' to it.
But we blew it, again and again, and so we wait... only ONE verse left in the time line prophecy of Daniel 11, verse 45. Verse 44? Done, been done for over a hundred years, but "we" deny it, refuse to accept it, and so... we continue to wait.
3T266: "Maybe the key point here is a willingness of most people to go with the flow. Right now the flow is toward gross immorality, and at some future point, the flow will be toward outward piety."
It really saddens me to see our own SDA church going with the flow toward gross immorality. We have supported abortion officially now for around 4 decades, we have rocknroll churches, homosexual elders, games of chance at church functions, clothing issues, drug issues, domestic violence issues, adultery issues - nearly the same as the world.
What will wake us up?
When the fireballs start falling from the heavens, might that be the signal that the house of SDA has already been judged? By the time the 10 Commandments are brought forth, we know for sure that will be a sign of judgment.
We won't know when judgment ends, for anybody. Disasters or fire from the sky will not be a sign to me that judgment has or hasn't ended for anybody, the Church or for the world. We do know Daniel 12:1 follows Daniel 11:45 so it can't possibly happen before verse 45 is fulfilled. It seems to me that Satan himself won't know when the judgment has terminated. IF 12:1 immediately followed 11:45, then it seems he WOULD know! But if the time between the two verses is of an unknown length, then he wouldn't and neither would we.
When the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened, and every man shall be judged according to the things written in the books, then the tables of stone, hidden by God until that day, will be presented before the world as the standard of righteousness. Then men and women will see that the prerequisite of their salvation is obedience to the perfect law of God.
nb says, "rev. 13 supplies the missing gap between v. 45 and 12:1"
I assume you mean the 42 month reference in Rev 13 as the time frame between 45 and 12:1, "at that time...". Well at least we agree there is some amount of time between the two verses. Some folks take the meaning of "at that time..." to mean the same exact same time of verse 45.
Webmaster, when do you think the revelation of the ten commandments will be revealed to man? Before or after probation has closed (12:1)?
"What is the test of true religion? Knowing and doing the will of God, in accordance with every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. There is a sanctuary, and in that sanctuary is the ark, and in the ark are the tables of stone, on which are written the law spoken from Sinai amidst scenes of awful grandeur. These tables of stone are in the heavens, and they will be brought forth in that day when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, and men shall be judged according to the things written in the books. They will be judged by the law written by the finger of God and given to Moses to be deposited in the ark. A record is kept of the deeds of all men, and according to his works will every man receive sentence, whether they be good or whether they be evil." {20MR 68.4}
hmmmm, that quote makes it sound like it will be the 10 commandments kept in heaven that are brought forth for everyone to see, but there are other places that say that the ones hidden here on earth will be brought forth. Maybe both will be brought forth?
It is certain that God will give a powerful witness(es) to show the world what his words say when all the world tries to abrogate his law by changing the Sabbath to Sunday. No one will be left with any doubt or excuses.
The best model that I know of is that the earthly ark and commandments were a copy of the heavenly, and the SOP appears to talk about both the original and copy being produced in the end times. The earthly copy would presumably come from the ark that was hidden away just before the Babylonian captivity (PK 453).
Here's another quote, this one about the earthly copy:
"By these words Christ has placed this matter beyond all the sophistry of human conjecture. "And He [Christ] gave unto Moses, when He had made an end of communing with him upon Mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." (Exodus 31:18.) Nothing written on those tables could be blotted out. The precious record of the law was placed in the ark of the testament and is still there, safely hidden from the human family. But in God's appointed time He will bring forth these tables of stone to be a testimony to all the world against the disregard of His commandments and against the idolatrous worship of a counterfeit Sabbath."--Ms 122, 1901, pp. 1-4. ("The Law," November 23, 1901.) Released August 10, 1977. {8MR 100.3}
"But in God's appointed time He will bring forth these tables of stone to be a testimony to all the world against the disregard of His commandments and against the idolatrous worship of a counterfeit Sabbath."
That makes it abundantly clear that the tables of stone, hidden away in the ark of the covenant on earth, will be brought out BEFORE the Close of Probation. I've heard some people say the 10 commandments will be brought out AFTER the COP, and even that Satan will appear AFTER the COP. Neither of those ideas ever made any sense to me, and I'm glad to see more and more evidence that they are not according to God's inspired words.
"But in God's appointed time He will bring forth these tables of stone to be a testimony to all the world against the disregard of His commandments and against the idolatrous worship of a counterfeit Sabbath."
That makes it abundantly clear that the tables of stone, hidden away in the ark of the covenant on earth, will be brought out BEFORE the Close of Probation. I've heard some people say the 10 commandments will be brought out AFTER the COP, and even that Satan will appear AFTER the COP. Neither of those ideas ever made any sense to me, and I'm glad to see more and more evidence that they are not according to God's inspired words.
This issue might be more complicated than we first assume. For example, the quote below describes the commandments showing up after the close of probation.
I believe it's correct to say that these manifestations occur both before and after the close of probation, and the sources of the tables are both heavenly and earthly.
"While these words of holy trust ascend to God, the clouds sweep back, and the starry heavens are seen, unspeakably glorious in contrast with the black and angry firmament on either side. The glory of the celestial city streams from the gates ajar. Then there appears against the sky a hand holding two tables of stone folded together. Says the prophet: "The heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is judge Himself." Psalm 50:6. That holy law, God's righteousness, that amid thunder and flame was proclaimed from Sinai as the guide of life, is now revealed to men as the rule of judgment. The hand opens the tables, and there are seen the precepts of the Decalogue, traced as with a pen of fire. The words are so plain that all can read them. Memory is aroused, the darkness of superstition and heresy is swept from every mind, and God's ten words, brief, comprehensive, and authoritative, are presented to the view of all the inhabitants of the earth." {GC 639.1}
"But in God's appointed time He will bring forth these tables of stone to be a testimony to all the world against the disregard of His commandments and against the idolatrous worship of a counterfeit Sabbath."
That makes it abundantly clear that the tables of stone, hidden away in the ark of the covenant on earth, will be brought out BEFORE the Close of Probation. I've heard some people say the 10 commandments will be brought out AFTER the COP, and even that Satan will appear AFTER the COP. Neither of those ideas ever made any sense to me, and I'm glad to see more and more evidence that they are not according to God's inspired words.
we must be always careful not to use man's judgement or reasoning to prove such things... the only quote that states the 10 C before probation comes from a doubtful source prophet and kings... all other references come back to that lone source.... if you read in Word to the little flock it describes clearly that the tablets of stone were taken to heaven just like the tree of life as well as the pot of manna and aaron's budded staff... the bible in revelation says that the 10C will be revealed across the sky very near the end of the plagues showing all the evil men that the Law was never done away with... this is after the close of probation because men had already rejected messages given to them by His servants.
it is very difficult to find evidence of Satan's crowning act but if you dig deep enough in the scriptures you will find it and in EGW originals it is there too... but you have to read carefully because it is not spelled out clearly like some would like.... Satan will use deception and others like the antichrist and false prophet and two horned beast to do his work before the close of probation... it is after the close where he will do his crowning act of personation of christ himself and this is where he is depicted in Rev. 17 as the dragon beast... you will notice that the papacy is no longer a head but riding this beast/dragon.
In 1858 GC there are two trains going in opposite directions...the world is on one with Satan at the head, the other are God's warn torn people heading in the opposite direction. Once this happens, you cannot jump from one train to another.
The 1884 GC clearly states that Satan's crowning act appears after the close of probation but some doubt this statement. So, you must look deeper into the scriptures and original SOP.
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