To Show A Great Difference

Date: Jun 6, 2015

To Show A Great Difference

Date: Jun 6, 2015

What I attempted to show in the above post that messed up on me to make it hard to read is the fact we must be careful that we don't take all statements in the different compilations and books some men have inserted their see. Many are not as EGW meant it to be and bring out and the fact that words have been added to and some taken out in cases where some leading men thought to bring out what they come to believe she meant. No one, not one has ever had that right and will meet their actions I am sure in the judgment.

I put EGW's see of who the second beast is and the leading man's second. You can read the above post if you have good eyes but it is difficult for me.

His Blessings.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Date: Jun 7, 2015

America beast = 5 hits all the 5 hits agree with each other as to the 1st Beast = Rome, 2nd Beast = America / USA

1. {GC88 439.1 - 441.1 } quote at {GC88 440.2}

In chapter 13 [VERSES 1-10.] is described another beast, like unto a leopard, to which the dragon gave his power, and his seat, and great authority. This symbol, as most Protestants have believed, represents the papacy, which succeeded to the power and seat and authority once possessed by the ancient Roman Empire. Of the leopard-like beast it is declared: There was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies. . . . And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in Heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. This prophecy, which is nearly identical with the description of the little horn of Daniel 7, unquestionably points to the papacy. {GC88 439.1}

Power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And, says the prophet, I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death. And again, He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. The forty and two months are the same as the time and times and the dividing of time, three years and a half, or 1260 days, of Daniel 7,the time during which the papal power was to oppress God's people. This period, as stated in preceding chapters, began with the establishment of the papacy, A. D. 538, and terminated in 1798. At that time, when the papacy was abolished and the pope made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound, and the prediction was fulfilled, He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity. {GC88 439.2}

At this point another symbol is introduced. Says the prophet, I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb. [Revelation 13:11.] Both the appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise indicate that the nation which it represents is unlike those presented under the preceding symbols. The great kingdoms that have ruled the world were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. [Daniel 7:2.] In Revelation 17, an angel explained that waters represent peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. [Revelation 17:15.] Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea, represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained to power. {GC88 439.3}

But the beast with lamb-like horns was seen coming up out of the earth. Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied, and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World,that turbulent sea of peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. It must be sought in the Western Continent. {GC88 440.1}

What nation of the New World was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world? The application of the symbol admits of no question. One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America. Again and again the thought, almost the exact words, of the sacred writer have been unconsciously employed by the orator and the historian in describing the rise and growth of this nation. The beast was seen coming up out of the earth; and, according to the translators, the word here rendered coming up literally signifies to grow or spring up as a plant. And, as we have seen, the nation must arise in territory previously unoccupied. A prominent writer, describing the rise of the United States, speaks of the mystery of her coming forth from vacancy, and says, Like a silent seed we grew into empire. [TOWNSEND, IN THE NEW WORLD COMPARED WITH THE OLD, P. 462.] A European journal in 1850 spoke of the United States as a wonderful empire, which was emerging, and amid the silence of the earth daily adding to its power and pride. [THE DUBLIN NATION.] Edward Everett, in an oration on the Pilgrim founders of this nation, said: Did they look for a retired spot, inoffensive from its obscurity, safe in its remoteness from the haunts of despots, where the little church of Leyden might enjoy freedom of conscience? Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they have borne the banners of the cross. {GC88 440.2}

And he had two horns like a lamb. The lamb-like horns indicate youth, innocence, and gentleness, fitly representing the character of the United States when presented to the prophet as coming up in 1798. The Christian exiles who first fled to America, sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance, and they determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. The Declaration of Independence sets forth the great truth that all men are created equal, and endowed with the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and down-trodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {GC88 441.1}

But the beast with lamb-like horns spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, . . . saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. [Revelation 13:11-14.] {GC88 441.2}

The lamb-like horns and dragon voice of the symbol point to a striking contradiction between the professions and the practice of the nation thus represented. The speaking of the nation is the action of its legislative and judicial authorities. By such action it will give the lie to those liberal and peaceful principles which it has put forth as the foundation of its policy. The prediction that it will speak as a dragon, and exercise all the power of the first beast, plainly foretells a development of the spirit of intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the nations represented by the dragon and the leopard-like beast. And the statement that the beast with two horns causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, indicates that the authority of this nation is to be exercised in enforcing some observance which shall be an act of homage to the papacy. {GC88 442.1}

Such action would be directly contrary to the principles of this government, to the genius of its free institutions, to the direct and solemn avowals of the Declaration of Independence, and to the Constitution. The founders of the nation wisely sought to guard against the employment of secular power on the part of the church, with its inevitable resultintolerance and persecution. The Constitution provides that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, and that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office of public trust under the United States. Only in flagrant violation of these safeguards to the nation's liberty, can any religious observance be enforced by civil authority. But the inconsistency of such action is no greater than is represented in the symbol. It is the beast with lamb-like hornsin profession pure, gentle, and harmless that speaks as a dragon. {GC88 442.2}

Saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast. Here is clearly presented a form of government in which the legislative power rests with the people; a most striking evidence that the United States is the nation denoted in the prophecy. {GC88 443.1}

But what is the image to the beast? and how is it to be formed? The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the first beast. It is also called an image of the beast. Then to learn what the image is like, and how it is to be formed, we must study the characteristics of the beast itself, the papacy. When the early church became corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel, and accepting heathen rites and customs, she lost the Spirit and power of God; and in order to control the consciences of the people she sought the support of the secular power. The result was the papacy, a church that controlled the power of the State, and employed it to further her own ends, especially for the punishment of heresy. In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the State will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends. {GC88 443.2}

Whenever the church has obtained secular power, she has employed it to punish dissent from her doctrines. Protestant churches that have followed in the steps of Rome by forming alliance with worldly powers, have manifested a similar desire to restrict liberty of conscience. An example of this is given in the long-continued persecution of dissenters by the Church of England. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, thousands of non-conformist ministers were forced to leave their churches, and many, both of pastors and people, were subjected to fine, imprisonment, torture, and martyrdom. {GC88 443.3}

It was apostasy that led the early church to seek the aid of the civil government, and this prepared the way for the development of the papacy,the beast. Said Paul, There shall come a falling away, . . . and that man of sin be revealed. [2 Thessalonians 2:3] So apostasy in the church will prepare the way for the image to the beast. And the Bible declares that before the coming of the Lord there will exist a state of religious declension similar to that in the first centuries. In the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. [2 Timothy 3:1-5] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. [1 Timothy 4:1.] Satan will work with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness. And all that received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, will be left to accept strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. [2 Thessalonians 2:9-11.] When this state of ungodliness shall be reached, the same results will follow as in the first centuries. {GC88 443.4}

The wide diversity of belief in the Protestant churches is regarded by many as decisive proof that no effort to secure a forced uniformity can ever be made. But there has been for years, in churches of the Protestant faith, a strong and growing sentiment in favor of a union based upon common points of doctrine. To secure such a union, the discussion of subjects upon which all were not agreedhowever important they might be from a Bible standpointmust necessarily be waived. {GC88 444.1}

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Date: Jun 7, 2015

2. {GC 440.2}

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3. 4SP - The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four (1884)

In the book of the Revelation, under the symbols of a great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamb-like horns, [Revelation 12 AND 13.] are brought to view those earthly governments which are especially engaged in trampling upon God's law and persecuting his people. Their war is carried forward to the close of time. The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, are greatly in the minority. In the last days only a remnant exists. John speaks of them as those that "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." [Revelation 12:17.] {4SP 276.1}

Through the great powers controlled by paganism and the papacy, symbolized by the dragon and the leopard-like beast, Satan for many centuries destroyed God's faithful witnesses. Under the dominion of Rome, they were tortured and slain for more than a thousand years; but the papacy was at last deprived of its strength, and forced to desist from persecution. [Revelation 13:3, 10.] At that time the prophet beheld a new power coming up, represented by the beast with lamb-like horns. The appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise seem to indicate that the power which it represents is unlike those brought to view under the preceding symbols. The great kingdoms that have ruled the world obtained their dominion by conquest and revolution, and they were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when the "four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." [Daniel 7:2.] But the beast with horns like a lamb is seen "coming up out of the earth;" [Revelation 13:11.] signifying that instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented arose in territory previously unoccupied, and grew up gradually and peacefully. {4SP 276.2}

Here is a striking figure of the rise and growth of our own nation. And the lamb-like horns, emblems of innocence and gentleness, well represent the character of our government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism. The Christian exiles who first fled to America, sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance, and they determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Millions from other lands have sought our shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {4SP 277.1}

But the stern tracings of the prophetic pencil reveal a change in this peaceful scene. The beast with lamb-like horns speaks with the voice of a dragon, and "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him." The spirit of persecution manifested by paganism and the papacy is again to be revealed. Prophecy declares that this power will say "to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast." [Revelation 13:14.] The image is made to the first or leopard-like beast, which is the one brought to view in the third angel's message. By this first beast is represented the Roman Church, an ecclesiastical body clothed with civil power, having authority to punish all dissenters. The image to the beast represents another religious body clothed with similar power. The formation of this image is the work of that beast whose peaceful rise and mild professions render it so striking a symbol of the United States. Here is to be found an image of the papacy. When the churches of our land, uniting upon such points of faith as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and sustain their institutions, then will Protestant America have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy. Then the true church will be assailed by persecution, as were God's ancient people. Almost every century furnishes examples of what bigotry and malice can do under a plea of serving God by protecting the rights of Church and State. Protestant churches that have followed in the steps of Rome by forming alliance with worldly powers have manifested a similar desire to restrict liberty of conscience. In the seventeenth century thousands of non-conformist ministers suffered under the rule of the Church of England. Persecution always follows religious favoritism on the part of secular governments. {4SP 277.2}

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4. By this first beast is represented the Roman Church, an ecclesiastical body clothed with civil power, having authority to punish all dissenters. The image to the beast represents another religious body clothed with similar powers. The formation of this image is the work of that beast whose peaceful rise and mild professions render it so striking a symbol of the United States. Here is to be found an image of the Papacy. When the churches of our land, uniting upon such points of faith as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and sustain their institutions, then will Protestant America have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy. Then the true church will be assailed by persecution, as were God's ancient people. {SR 381.2}

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5. ST - The Signs of the Times

November 1, 1899 The Seal of God. No. 1.

The Conflicts of the True Church--Persecuting Powers--The

Last Great Power--A Warning Message--The

Seal of God, the Mark of the Beast.

To the apostle John on the isle of Patmos were opened scenes of deep and thrilling interest in the experience of the church. Subjects of intense interest and vast importance were presented to him in figures and symbols, that the people of God might become intelligent concerning the perils and conflicts before them. The history of the Christian world to the very close of time was revealed to John. With great clearness he saw the position, dangers, conflicts, and final deliverance of the people of God. He records the closing message which is to ripen the harvest of earth, either as sheaves for the heavenly garner, or as fagots for the fires of the last day. {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 1}

In vision John beheld the trials which God's people would endure for the truth's sake. He saw their unyielding firmness in obeying the commandments of God, in the face of the oppressive powers that sought to force them into disobedience, and he saw their final triumph over the beast and his image. {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 2}

Under the symbols of a great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamblike horns, the earthly governments which would especially engage in trampling upon God's law and persecuting His people, were presented to John. The war is carried on till the close of time. The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 3}

Through paganism, and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his power for many centuries in an effort to blot from the earth God's faithful witnesses. Pagans and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Papacy, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism, Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the people of God suffered under the dragon's ire. And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon's voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}

Date: Jun 7, 2015

BTW context RE 3SM p - 393 ( quote posted was in reference specifically to Satan ) also 1 & 2 & 3 SM are compilations also. Compilations are not bad, just read the original statement in original context also.

1SM - Selected Messages Book 1 (1958)

2SM - Selected Messages Book 2 (1958)

3SM - Selected Messages Book 3 (1980)

There Will Be Laws Controlling Conscience.-- The so-called Christian world is to be the theater of great and decisive actions. Men in authority will enact laws controlling the conscience, after the example of the papacy. Babylon will make all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Every nation will be involved. Of this time John the Revelator declares: {3SM 392.1}

"The merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow" (Revelation 18:3-7). {3SM 392.2}

One Universal Confederacy.--"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Revelation 17:13, 14). {3SM 392.3}

"These have one mind." There will be a universal bond of union, one great harmony, a confederacy of Satan's forces. "And shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Thus is manifested the same arbitrary, oppressive power against religious liberty, freedom to worship God according to the dictates of conscience, as was manifested by the papacy, when in the past it persecuted those who dared to refuse to conform with the religious rites and ceremonies of Romanists. {3SM 392.4}

In the warfare to be waged in the last days there will be united, in opposition to God's people, all the corrupt powers that have apostatized from allegiance to the law of Jehovah. In this warfare the Sabbath of the fourth commandment will be the great point at issue, for in the Sabbath commandment the great Lawgiver identifies Himself as the Creator of the heavens and the earth. . . . {3SM 392.5}

In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" (chap. 16:13-15). . . . {3SM 393.2}

Satan Will Appear to Succeed.--All things in nature and in the world at large are charged with intense earnestness. Satan, in cooperation with his angels and with evil men, will put forth every effort to gain the victory, and will appear to succeed. But from this conflict, truth and righteousness will come forth triumphant in victory. Those who have believed a lie will be defeated, for the days of apostasy will be ended.-- Manuscript 24, 1891. {3SM 393.3}

Date: Jun 7, 2015

The whole of the interpretation we have of Re 13: I feel came from U. Smith. In fact but two verses will show the Papacy is not the first beast of the chapter and here they are!

Re 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Pretty simple even for a fifth grader, verse 1 tells us the beast has "SEVEN" heads and then verse 3 tells us but "ONE" head is wounded and goes on to tell us all the world wondered after the beast and we know the beast has seven heads and 10 horns now the king. So it comes clear the whole world don't wonder after the ONE head that was wounded.

This beast is Satan's "image" beast in that it too has 7 heads and 10 horns as he the great red dragon does!

Then we read this of this beast, - - Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

So we see this system then must be Satan's right hand man until he is allowed out to reign. Now let's read a few scripture EGW has identified as beast #2. Notice of his "image."

Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Re 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Now folks how reasonable is it going to be that the USA is going to bring fire down from heaven to prove it is God? Baloney it is Satan that is coming personating Jesus Christ coming in all the glory Yah will allow him.

The first beast of the chapter is the system Satan began rising up in 1798, his NWO, New World Order or UN if you wish, of which who of which nation or any make war with?

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

This country is a system of states united but this beast is the system of all the nations of the world united.

The 10 horns of the beast we notice are the kings of this whole mess and these are the 10 super rich dynasty families of the world and know this, "he who has the money in this world rules" and so they puppet all the rulers and industry of the world. Lord Jacob Rothschild is the most powerful of the 10 as he is the richest, gross worth is estimated at 420 trillion dollars.

These 10 and can't name them all anymore meet quite often in Edgar Bronfman's penthouse in Canada who is one of the 10. They like also to meet in the tower of Dubai.

Now, I must say this, that EGW saw that all the expositions given out were not infallible so we must not be creed bound!

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. We are living in perilous times, and it does not become us to accept everything claimed to be truth without examining it thoroughly; neither can we afford to reject anything that bears the fruits of the Spirit of God; but we should be teachable, meek and lowly of heart. There are those who oppose everything that is not in accordance with their own ideas, and by so doing they endanger their eternal interest as verily as did the Jewish nation in their rejection of Christ. The Lord designs that our opinions shall be put to the test, that we may see the necessity of closely examining the living oracles to see whether or not we are in the faith. Many who claim to believe the truth have settled down at their ease, saying, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." But Jesus says to these self-complacent ones, Thou "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Let us individually inquire, Do these words describe my case? If so, the True Witness counsels us, saying, "Buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see." {RH, December 20, 1892 par. 1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Date: Jun 7, 2015

Much of the confusion that we have right now comes from the work of U. Smith imparting his views into manuscript.

Date: Jun 7, 2015

The USA is probably the second beast.

The only other plausible alternative I can see is that it is some kind of apostate Protestant power that Satan gives miracle-working power to.

The idea that there are a few super-rich families controlling the world is nonsense.

Let's be good Bereans.

Date: Jun 7, 2015

Brothers I missed putting this in, in the above post. How on earth can you say the USA is probably the second beast of Re 13: when EGW tells us this and don't tell me U. Smith changed this quote to go against his own thesis? Wow!

In Revelation we read concerning Satan: (13)"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, (14)and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. (15)And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (16)And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: (17)and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

Can you not see she does not agree with the USA being the second beast?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Date: Jun 9, 2015

This is so subtle and deceptive. Read carefully how this is written. Satan himself is close behind using human instrumentalities to control the world. Satan himself is referred to as the man of sin but he so closely uses human agencies that the pope and his system is also referred to the man of sin. Just like the king of tyre had a dual reference. This is confusing to human minds and makes it a deep study to understand clearly what is going on behind the scenes.

When Satan could not induce all the angels to revolt against the law of God, he made the earth the scene of his rebellion, and through the man of sin seeks to carry out his diabolical purpose. Through the Papacy, the Roman power, the man of sin, the purpose of Satan is carried out among men; the law and the time of God are set aside. In this we see that Protestantism is giving encouragement to popery; and false systems of worship, against which our fathers manfully opposed themselves, imperiling even property and life, are fostered and cherished and encouraged to extend and gain wide influence. Protestants do not search their Bibles as they should, and do not heed the warning that has been given concerning the work of the man of sin. The Roman Church claims that the pope is invested with supreme authority over all bishops and pastors, and this claim of supremacy was once denied by Protestants. They took the position that the Bible, and the Bible alone, constituted the rule of faith and doctrine, that the word of God is the only unerring guide for human souls, and that it is unnecessary and harmful to take the words of priests and prelates instead of the word of God. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 2}

Romanism in the Old World, and apostate Protestantism in the New, will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts. This is the mystery of iniquity, the devising of satanic agencies, carried into effect by the man of sin. {ST, February 22, 1910 par. 6}

God will most assuredly call the world to judgment to avenge the death of his only begotten Son, the One who stood at the bar of Pilate and Herod; that One is now in the heavenly courts making intercession for the people who refused him. Shall we choose the stamp of the world, or shall we choose to be God's separate, peculiar people? Shall we receive a "Thus saith the Lord," for the "Thus saith" of man? The papal power, the man of sin, decides that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the law of God. In the place of the seventh day, they have baptized and presented to the world a child of the papacy, the first day of the week, to be observed as a holy day of rest. The Protestant world has received this child of the papacy, has cradled it, and given to it the honor that God has placed on the seventh day. {PH086 37.3}

We are to be ready and waiting for the orders of God. Nations will be stirred to their very center. Support will be withdrawn from those who proclaim God's only standard of righteousness, the only sure test of character. And all who will not bow to the decrees of the national councils and obey the national laws to exalt the sabbath instituted by the man of sin to the disregard of God's holy day, will feel, not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the image of the beast. {12MR 324.2}

Satan is determined that the knowledge of God, of his creative power, shall be banished from the contemplation and remembrance of men. But he cannot accomplish his purpose while the fourth commandment is kept; for the Sabbath directs the minds of men to the Creator. Therefore Satan has worked through the Papacy to set aside this precept. He inspired the Romish Church to "think to change" the times and laws of God. In setting aside the true Sabbath, which is the sign of God's power and authority, and substituting the institution which is the sign of Rome's supremacy, the "man of sin" is indeed "sitting in the temple of God, and showing himself that he is God." He is turning the minds of men away from God, and directing them to himself, and to the one whose instrument he is,--to the prince of evil. {ST, June 12, 1893 par. 8}

Date: Jun 10, 2015

Here is another difference we have not had right, "That Wicked" is the alpha lawless one and that is Satan and what it is apparent is verse 9 names "that wicked", yes as Satan.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Yes Christ comes and consumes him with his brightness, Satan's apparition or whatever can be seen.

"That Wicked is anomos in the Greek,
459. anomos
anomoV anomos an'-om-os
from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

See Greek 1
See Greek 3551

The A on nomos makes it the Alpha nomos and since it is a negative particle it is the Alpha Lawless one, if it had not been a negative particle it would have been the First lawful one.

Date: Jun 10, 2015

Gibs wrote:
Here is another difference we have not had right, "That Wicked" is the alpha lawless one and that is Satan and what it is apparent is verse 9 names "that wicked", yes as Satan.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Yes Christ comes and consumes him with his brightness, Satan's apparition or whatever can be seen.
"That Wicked is anomos in the Greek,
459. anomos
anomoV anomos an'-om-os
from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
See Greek 1
See Greek 3551
The A on nomos makes it the Alpha nomos and since it is a negative particle it is the Alpha Lawless one, if it had not been a negative particle it would have been the First lawful one.

There is a problem here because Satan will NOT be consumed by the 2nd coming. His end will be in the lake of fire at the 3rd coming.

Date: Jun 10, 2015

Satan is a ministering spirit as all the angels are fallen or un fallen and I am sure that Satan has the ability to show an appearance of some kind, apparition of which only will be consumed at Christ's coming.

I noted that what would be consumed by the LORD'S brightness is Satan's apparition or how he has chosen to be seen. I in no way meant to imply that Satan is destroyed at that time.

For sure Satan has not yet finished his skull doggery yet and when it is done then it will be he will be consumed roots and all, never to be no more.

The Pope you see is already seen and revealed, it is Satan that that needs to be shown that he is not whom he claims to be.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This will show that he is that great liar from the beginning.

Date: Jun 10, 2015

Gibs wrote:
Satan is a ministering spirit as all the angels are fallen or un fallen and I am sure that Satan has the ability to show an appearance of some kind, apparition of which only will be consumed at Christ's coming.
I noted that what would be consumed by the LORD'S brightness is Satan's apparition or how he has chosen to be seen. I in no way meant to imply that Satan is destroyed at that time.
For sure Satan has not yet finished his skull doggery yet and when it is done then it will be he will be consumed roots and all, never to be no more.
The Pope you see is already seen and revealed, it is Satan that that needs to be shown that he is not whom he claims to be.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
This will show that he is that great liar from the beginning.

The EGW originals show us that the one that is revealed at the 2nd coming is the papacy and the system that governs it. The man of sin is the pope according to sop originals. He will be destroyed at the 2nd coming.

Date: Jun 10, 2015

Not according to scripture the man of sin is the "alpha lawless one", Anomos, that is the meaning of the Greek for "that Wicked." Now it is apparent to me that is why the KJV translators capitalized "Wicked".

Here is the Greek again for "that Wicked",

459. anomos
anomoV anomos an'-om-os

from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

See Greek 1
See Greek 3551

Greek 1 is alpha

I have to take my stand on this scripture as I will not wrest it out of what it is telling me. This alone is our infallible guide, the Holy Word.

Date: Jun 11, 2015

NB wrote:
This is so subtle and deceptive. Read carefully how this is written. Satan himself is close behind using human instrumentalities to control the world. Satan himself is referred to as the man of sin but he so closely uses human agencies that the pope and his system is also referred to the man of sin. Just like the king of tyre had a dual reference. This is confusing to human minds and makes it a deep study to understand clearly what is going on behind the scenes.

When Satan could not induce all the angels to revolt against the law of God, he made the earth the scene of his rebellion, and through the man of sin seeks to carry out his diabolical purpose. Through the Papacy, the Roman power, the man of sin, the purpose of Satan is carried out among men; the law and the time of God are set aside. In this we see that Protestantism is giving encouragement to popery; and false systems of worship, against which our fathers manfully opposed themselves, imperiling even property and life, are fostered and cherished and encouraged to extend and gain wide influence. Protestants do not search their Bibles as they should, and do not heed the warning that has been given concerning the work of the man of sin. The Roman Church claims that the pope is invested with supreme authority over all bishops and pastors, and this claim of supremacy was once denied by Protestants. They took the position that the Bible, and the Bible alone, constituted the rule of faith and doctrine, that the word of God is the only unerring guide for human souls, and that it is unnecessary and harmful to take the words of priests and prelates instead of the word of God. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 2}

Romanism in the Old World, and apostate Protestantism in the New, will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts. This is the mystery of iniquity, the devising of satanic agencies, carried into effect by the man of sin. {ST, February 22, 1910 par. 6}

God will most assuredly call the world to judgment to avenge the death of his only begotten Son, the One who stood at the bar of Pilate and Herod; that One is now in the heavenly courts making intercession for the people who refused him. Shall we choose the stamp of the world, or shall we choose to be God's separate, peculiar people? Shall we receive a "Thus saith the Lord," for the "Thus saith" of man? The papal power, the man of sin, decides that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the law of God. In the place of the seventh day, they have baptized and presented to the world a child of the papacy, the first day of the week, to be observed as a holy day of rest. The Protestant world has received this child of the papacy, has cradled it, and given to it the honor that God has placed on the seventh day. {PH086 37.3}

Read carefully what she says here.

do not be confused... the phrase son of man is used to describe Jesus and also some others in the bible... like Ezekiel....

Date: Jun 11, 2015

However that does not show us that, "that Wicked" of 2 Thes 2:8 is the Pope and scripture is the last word there on that, and "that Wicked" is the Alpha Lawless One.

Yes EGW saw the Popes as the men of sin but are the Popes the only men of sin. For sure not, do some investigating of what Tele Aviv of Israel is the capital of.

EGW also stated "SHE" has had her day of the Papacy and it is past Yes Israel has far more ability to get away with things and her influence is far greater over the seven heads of which the Papacy is one of them.

Have you noticed the Papacy has kept within the worlds law since 1798? Now has Israel? Well Adventism has always made the Papacy every thing and for me that mostly came from U. Smith. I think he felt he had as much inspiration as EGW and looks as though he questioned the Word as some not much inspired.

Date: Jun 11, 2015

Gibs wrote:
However that does not show us that, "that Wicked" of 2 Thes 2:8 is the Pope and scripture is the last word there on that, and "that Wicked" is the Alpha Lawless One.
Yes EGW saw the Popes as the men of sin but are the Popes the only men of sin. For sure not, do some investigating of what Tele Aviv of Israel is the capital of.
EGW also stated "SHE" has had her day of the Papacy and it is past Yes Israel has far more ability to get away with things and her influence is far greater over the seven heads of which the Papacy is one of them.
Have you noticed the Papacy has kept within the worlds law since 1798? Now has Israel? Well Adventism has always made the Papacy every thing and for me that mostly came from U. Smith. I think he felt he had as much inspiration as EGW and looks as though he questioned the Word as some not much inspired.

Okay, I see what you mean now...

Date: Jun 11, 2015

I have always found it strange that scripture states "mAn of sin" and not mEn of sin" and so which Pope is that man?

Another one is where Adventists make this player the Pope, a question here arises.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be "REVEALED", whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Now what on earth needs revealed of the Pope, he is very visible and all know he is the head of Catholicism.

But now the one I find to be the one to need to be revealed is the one scripture tells us we have one "that was, and is not, and yet is."

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, "WHEN THEY BEHOLD THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, AND YET IS.

Hey the one hidden from us is Satan and he once was in Heaven and then cast "INTO" the earth and is not seen and yes he yet is and then he is he is allowed out.

And OOOH, now visble, here he does it, right from where he has been cast!

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast "COMING UP OUT OF THE EARTH"; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

He personates the Lamb but can only speak as a dragon as it is hard for him to do else, like a dog trying to purr as a kitten.

Date: Jun 11, 2015

That idea that the state of Israel is more powerful than the Roman Catholic Church is ludicrous.

The statement: "Have you noticed the Papacy has kept within the worlds law since 1798?" Is ridiculous too.

Where do you get these lies, Gibs, and why do you propagate them?

Date: Jun 12, 2015

Webmaster, it is the facts of the TRUE news that upholds the fact that Israel is the one getting what she wants and gets by with it.

Date: Jun 18, 2015

The Man of Sin is the pope...which one? doesn't matter.

That Wicked one as you say...may be referenced to Satan himself.

Date: Jun 19, 2015

NB, I rather doubt the man of sin being the "Popes". It carries the meaning of the one God sees as a man that is the instller of sin.

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee

How about all the head men of each denomination out there and the other false religions. ALL are false religions who veer from the true in any way and all these do!

Date: Jun 19, 2015

Gibs wrote:
NB, I rather doubt the man of sin being the "Popes". It carries the meaning of the one God sees as a man that is the instller of sin.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee
How about all the head men of each denomination out there and the other false religions. ALL are false religions who veer from the true in any way and all these do!

I'm just relating to you what the original SOP says... 'man of sin' is referring to the papacy.... or the pope in charge at the time of the end... your beef is not with me, it is with SOP.

God bless all

Date: Jun 19, 2015

When you can show me where she states "I was shown" or "I saw" that the Popes is the man of sin I will consider it. Remember too that EGW stated that all our expositions are not without error. This has always been a big thing of Adventism when she is apostate herself. Remember this too,

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Investigation of Doctrine.--There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. {CW 35.2}

Date: Jun 19, 2015

Gibs wrote:
When you can show me where she states "I was shown" or "I saw" that the Popes is the man of sin I will consider it. Remember too that EGW stated that all our expositions are not without error. This has always been a big thing of Adventism when she is apostate herself. Remember this too,
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Investigation of Doctrine.--There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. {CW 35.2}

It is in an old original that I do not think is on disk. I'll look it up after the Sabbath.

God bless

Date: Jun 19, 2015

Even way back yon there were many deceivers and know this there is more today. So many men of sin, so who is the "man" of sin?

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Sunday is Satan's day as he is the sun god and used the first apostate fell from the True Church to make it to change worship to Sunday and thus be in direct opposition to God. When he is allowed out personating Jesus he will put "teeth" in Sunday worship.

"I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. {SpM 1.4}

Also is she saying this is the USA? This is the one noted to be wiser than Daniel!

Date: Jun 19, 2015

Yes, the inspired words say that the "man of sin" is the papacy.

Of course we know that Satan is the instigator of all sin.

Date: Jun 20, 2015

It is not that I like to disagree but I must take my last stand on scripture and this is my see of this,

I will post a few verses to give some scrutiny of.

2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

First of verse 3 above, "son of perdition" means son of destruction of which Satan is the Alpha or first. And now of verse 4 we have one who exalts himself above all. Does the Popes do this? I know they claim to be the vicar of God and what does that mean? Namely "priest" as far as I can find.

Now of verse 6 we read "be revealed in his time". Now that is revealing to say the least. What I am wondering what needs to be revealed to us of the Popes? Nothing really that I can think of.

Now what of Satan? Well his time has not yet come to show himself as God yet and we know he is going to and in as great of a show of brightness and glory as God will allow him and as man has never seen!

The clincher comes from the next verse for this reckoning,

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

"That Wicked" is anomos of the Greek and means "The Alpha Lawless One."
That of course can be but one, namely Satan.
459. anomos
anomoV anomos an'-om-os
from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
See Greek 1
See Greek 3551
Greek 1 above is Alpha,

Now in the next verse the coming of Christ reveals this too, read,

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Don't you see that Christ's coming reveals it is Satan?

Now here is where the Alpha Lawless One comes forth from where he has been cast into the earth and but the very, very few will know it is Satan and most Adventists think this is the USA!

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

You will note in this quote of EGW that she quotes Rev 13:13-17 exactly!

"In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

I say case dismissed!

Date: Jun 20, 2015

God will most assuredly call the world to judgment to avenge the death of his only begotten Son, the One who stood at the bar of Pilate and Herod; that One is now in the heavenly courts making intercession for the people who refused him. Shall we choose the stamp of the world, or shall we choose to be God's separate, peculiar people? Shall we receive a "Thus saith the Lord," for the "Thus saith" of man? The papal power, the man of sin, decides that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the law of God. In the place of the seventh day, they have baptized and presented to the world a child of the papacy, the first day of the week, to be observed as a holy day of rest. The Protestant world has received this child of the papacy, has cradled it, and given to it the honor that God has placed on the seventh day. {PH086 37.3}

As promised.