Who are the 24 Elders in Heaven, and Their Position?
On an Adventist forum recently, I was asked these words: "Okay, Ed, I just stopped by for the day, haven't read the whole thread. Since you like to make the points quickly, give me the short version. What's your point with the 24 elders?"
The 24 Elders are "redeemed" [Rev.5:9] ex-sinners from this earth. They are alive and well, setting on 24 seats in the presence of the Father, who is also sitting down, on "His Throne" [5:2]. The "Lamb", [5:6] is Jesus; He is standing. The same number of angels that are present in this assembly [5:11] is the same number that Daniel spoke of in Daniel 7:10, "thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the Judgment was set, and the books were opened."
Now this "him" above is God the Father. The "books were opened" above, is the book that the "Lamb" takes from the Father's hand, and unseals one generation of names at a time. Only the names of those that professed faith in God are considered [GC 480] in this Investigative Judgement now in process.
This book contains the deeds of those people who were dead, as this necessary judgement begins. The angels present are the record keepers of those deeds. The 24 ELDERS [the jurors] want to look them right in the eye as each piece of the evidence is presented. These 24 ELDERS have the same roots as the people's names being judged, [our peers] as the life and death issues proceeds. Each name is searched as with "lighted candles", one at a time.
The name of Samson finally is called out. The record of him crawling back to that harlot's bed even after he knew God's power was running unlimited in his body when duty was on the throne, must be examined. The 24 ELDERS wanted to know, did he REALLY DO THAT! Yes, he did, according to the books! But there is someone standing as the 24 ELDERS and the Father are seated, He has something to add to this judgement scene. He holds up His hands, He is saying something about blood to this Judge and pleading in Samson's defense. He is acquainted with blood being shed, Him being the innocent Lamb that was slain.[Rev.5:6]
Jesus tells the angels to keep turning the pages, He wanted the 24 ELDERS to SEE the evidence of Samson coming to his senses after years of foolish living. Samson DID repent, the blood of the Lamb covers every hook and cranny of a selfish, up and down life. Jesus can now plead with even a greater plea, the 24 ELDERS are satisfied and nod.
Now the Father can announce that justice has been met.
"Just write Samson's name in the book of life" is the order given, as the 24 ELDERS ponder whose name will be next.
After all the dead are judged the same exact way, with individual names going either in the Book of Life or in the Book of Death.
Then the cases of the living are considered next with their cases remaining open until the cut off date when Jesus must speak!
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which Is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" Rev.22:11,12.
After Jesus says those words, the 24 ELDER get up and start packing for at least a 14 day trip, back to where their roots are on this earth. Not to touch down, but to greet their former friends of years gone by in the air.
Does anyone remember that song that goes like this:
"I dreamed I searched heaven for you...oh friend want you prepare to me up there, lest I search heaven for you"? Well I plan on doing a little "searching" on my journey up. Someone may even point out to me one of the 24 ELDERS immediately, but if not, there will be an another opportunity-My search surely will include Sarnson, knowing that "Physically, Samson was the strongest man upon the earth; but in self-control, integrity, and firmness, he was one of the weakest of men. Many mistake strong passions for a strong character, but the truth is that he who is mastered by his passions is a weak man. The real greatness of the man is measured by the power of the feelings that he controls, not by those that control him."
Reading such words encourages me that there is hope for a sinner like me. I read where Samson's name is mentioned in Hebrews 11:31-32, "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:"
PS - I purposely did not quote from Ellen White in the above "short version" just this one time to those that are Offended by the "Other books". The longer version? It's on an auto tape where the SOP inspired quotes is freely used. For the tape send me your address.
I notice everyone becomes real silent when truth is presented in it's native purity, it must be because of all the documentation provided in the above post for this silence? Where are all "the people of the book" to defend their churches position on these chapters of Revelation. Please don't tell me these chapters of Revelation [4/5/6] are "non-salvation issues" as I will stop you at the gate. The SOP say that if you don't understand the 7 seals chapter correctly "you will not act a part in the closing scenes of this earth history". 9T 267 Before she says those words on page 266 she explains that these chapters are all about the Investigative Judgement! But those trained wrong in the seminary are clinging to their security blanket [their seminary teacher] where he suggested that nothing but praise is going on in these chapters.
These song keeps ringing in my ear, so I just as well vent it. "The judgement is set, the books have been opened how shall you stand in that great day? Shall you be found before His wanting? Or with your sins all washed away. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% This work began with those who are sleeping soon will the living there be tried out of the books of Gods rememberance His decision to abide."
Rev 5:8-10 (King James Version) 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
A simple fact to understand: In verse eight we are told who is singing the new song. If you read carefully, you will see that it is the four beasts(Angels) and the 24 elders(the group in question) who sing this song. Verse nine says that they(four beasts and 24 elders) sung a new song. If this is true, then the part in the king James bible where it says and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; cannot be true. This is because the four living creatures could not be redeemed by Jesus since they have never sinned (the redemption of Jesus is only for the fallen human race). According to the context shown, the two groups cant sing the same song in first person if it cant be applied to one of them, but they could sing it in third person if its about someone else.
Then the question arises:
How do we explain this apparent problem?
Simple, the Greek translation for the book of revelation only in the case of the bible versions including King James, and New King James do not use a strong Greek copy that would support the context of the verses in question. The phrase in verse nine has redeemed us to God does not appear in first person in other Bible versions, in fact it's left out in the open. The Greek word for redeemed(egorasas) really means to buy or to purchase, but its translated redeemed because this buying or purchasing by the blood of Jesus has the purpose of redemption, so it works also. The problem is with the Greek word hEmas which means us. This word should not appear in this verse because it goes against the context given. Such is the case for the KJV (which has the word), but there are other Greek scrolls that dont contain the word hEmas. The phrase should read:with your blood you purchased for God and not and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood.
But what about verse 10?
Lets see, verse ten says - KJV.[And hast made us - autous unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign - basileusousin on the earth.](Emphasis added). The word autous for us is always used in the bible in the third person (Mat 10:26, Luk 24:51, Joh 1:38 to name a few), however, it has an exception rule which indicates that if the immediate before context is spoken in a specific person (first person or third person), then the word autous must follow the same path as well so it can make sense. This is why the king James version translates it as us instead of them. Now the word basileusousin doesnt have such rule so it must always be translated in the third person, in fact this word appears three other times in the bible and they are always in third person (Rom 5:17, Rev 20:6, and Rev 22:5). Bible versions such as KJV translate this word basileusousin in first person in spite of its grammar because otherwise the whole thing would contradict itself. It would read something like this: 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and THEY shall reign on the earth.(Emphasis added).
How can we proof all of this information?
By carefully studying at the Greek grammar and the context of the text itself which means you must go back to verse 8 of revelation 5 to determine who are singing this new song.
Conclusion
Who are the 24 Elders not?
They are not human beings as the popular believe think it is.
The Analytical-Literal Translation which is the most accurate New Testament in the English language translates Revelation 5:8-10 like this:
And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp and golden bowls full of incenses, which are {the} prayers of the holy ones [or, saints, and throughout book]. And they sing a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slain, and You redeemed us to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue [fig., language group, and throughout book] and people and nation, and made them kings and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth.
Perhaps the living creatures identify themselves so much with God's people that they can sing with the 24 elders. I don't know, but it is obvious that the 24 elders are humans who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Perhaps they were the ones taken up into heaven when Jesus ascended just before Pentecost?
"Perhaps the living creaures identify themselves so much with God's people that theycan sing with the 24 elders. I don't know, but it is obvious that the 24 elders are human"
Dear friend,
I'm afraid "perhaps" isn't enough in a Bible study like this one. You must have biblical evidence to support your idea. There are two different Greek writings on this passage. Take a look for example at the "New International Version" and see how it reads below:
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of Gods people.9 And they sang a new song, saying:
You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.
As you can see these passages are written in the third person indicating that both groups (the 4 creatures and the 24 elders) are excluding themselves from the song. But why do we find two different versions? How can we know which one is the correct one? This is why we must also use the context of scripture to help us identify the truth.
When you say that the four living creatures sing the song with the 24 elders because they identify themselves with God's people, you put them in a position of "sin" and this is unsupported Biblically. When you identify with someone, it means you understand the person because you have experienced the same thing. Such is not the case of the 4 living creatures ergo they could not sing the song for themselves. And if this is true for them, then its also true for the 24 elders. If you compare the context of the translation you're using with the NIV (which puts it in third person as it should be), then you would conclude in this case that the "Analytical-Literal Translation" you presented, isn't really the most accurate. For this reason and by the Bible only is that the answer of who the 24 elders are not is simple, They are not fallen human beings.
Your comments are interesting, Marlon, but there are some factual mistakes, and a sense of unwillingness to admit that we don't know all the information about the subject. I said "perhaps" in my previous post because i don't know all the information either. Probably no one knows all the information about this subject yet except God. But God will reveal more information to those studying in the humbleness of a little child, sitting at the feet of Christ to learn.
The New International Version of the Bible is one of the most corrupt translations available. That is a fact.
The text itself does NOT say the 4 living creatures sing the song with the 24 elders. That is an assumption, perhaps warranted, perhaps not.
The 24 elders are humans redeemed from this world.
I totally concur with you Webmaster. In the online website eSword we can look at the direct Hebrew wording of Rev. 9 and the word "Hemas" is in there. That means the word "us" or "we" are redeemed by the blood. No angels or other 'beings" as Stephen Bohr attempts to prove can be redeemed as they have not sinned. Amazing how people will twist and detour the plain word of the Lord. I also like your post ED, thanks.
It took around 10 seconds for this thread's originator name to register with me....
Can you please point me to what you believe to be the original Greek Bible?
that's strange, Ed had the same problems... it has been a while but found it on the internet maybe 4 years ago and searched for those key words and they were not there.. it is too bad really as in the KJV it should have been in italics
These are well-known "Critical Text" Greek editions based on the corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts. So I'm at a loss to understand why you think they are "original", or that they have weight in discussions on matters of truth.
Personally, I believe in the Majority Text and Textus Receptus based Greek manuscripts. Yes, I do understand that the Critical text and the Majority text agree in around 85% of the places, but it is those other places that make me reject it.
Here are some web sites showing where I'm coming from: http://www.uv.es/~fores/programa/majorityvscritical.html http://www.dtl.org/versions/e-mails/three-1.htm
Here is the way someone using the Majority text translated these two verses - Revelation 5:9-10, and his comments: 9 And they sing a new song saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; because You were slaughtered, and have redeemed us (2) to God by your blood out of every tribe and language and people and ethnic nation; 10 and You have made them (3) kings and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth."
2 Every Greek manuscript except one, of inferior quality, reads "us". Many modern versions follow that lone manuscript and omit the pronoun, but that leaves the transitive verb "redeem" without a direct object, so they usually supply "men" or some such thing. But the true reading is obviously "us", so the 24 elders are among the redeemed, and they are already in heaven wearing crowns. 3 A very few late Greek manuscripts read "us", as in KJV, but almost all the manuscripts read "them". The 24 elders exclude themselves when it comes to reigning on the earth - evidently they will not be involved in the administration of the Millennial Kingdom.
Here is a Greek Interlinear called the Scriveners Textus Receptus 1894 (Basis of KJV / AV translation): Please note that I do not consider it as accurate at the Majority Text, but it is far better than any Critical text is:
Here is a Greek Interlinear called the Scriveners Textus Receptus 1894 (Basis of KJV / AV translation): Please note that I do not consider it as accurate at the Majority Text, but it is far better than any Critical text is:
I just downloaded a module for my Bible software (I use "The Word") that is the Byzantine Majority Text. That module is also available for "e-sword". While I can see it fine on my computer, that doesn't help you on an online search. FYI, it does contain the Greek for "us" in Rev. 5:9.
I've spent quite a while looking for this, and just can't find it online, sorry.
Here's the thing.... in Rev. ch 4 there are 24 elders and others around the throne... Jesus has not arrived yet... in Rev. ch. 5 Jesus arrives and from sop we know he brings the wave sheaf... The point being, before Jesus arrives there are 24 elders and Jesus has not yet presented the wave sheaf so where do these 24 elders come from... have their been 24 translated that we do not know about? When I could not find 'us' in the Greek text it made perfect sense to me that to supply they and them makes more sense referring to the saints of all the earth.
I will wait until you find an original Greek text that I can look for the proper words...
If you take the interlinear they start with the KJV and then translate each word so they have inadvertently supplied "us" without realizing it. Are you getting what I'm saying here?
