Post Info TOPIC: Whither the Trinity?
Vigilantius

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Whither the Trinity?
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This is a difficult subject, and I'm no expert on it.  But it may be useful to say a few things.

In the first place, the issue goes way beyond the number of entities involved.  The Bible clearly mentions three (Matthew 28:19).  The issue is one of origin and relation of the entities.

The second point is that a variety of Christian groups claim to believe in the Trinity, but they don't all believe in the same thing.  For example, if you ask me if I believe in the Catholic version, the answer is "no".  If you ask about the Adventist version, then I would respond "I have no idea", because of the vagueness of the issue.

I know of at least one prominent web site that attacks Adventists for claiming to believe in the Trinity, but not really following through in embracing the "orthodox" version of the doctrine.  It's hard to say who is right here.

It's also worth mentioning that the Trinity doctrine arose in the SDA Church as part of a movement to "modernize" the church, and one of the big names behind this effort was Leroy Froom in the 1920s.  A primary reference is page 322 of his book "Movement of Destiny".  Such modernization sounds like a good idea on the surface, but in practice tends to water down or eliminate distinctive doctrines, and introduce error (cf. his involvement in Questions on Doctrine in the 1950s).

In terms of the underlying theology, one of the issues that comes up is the relation of the Spirit to the Father and Son.  Genesis 1 mentions the Spirit, but this doesn't necessarily imply that the Spirit has always been autonomous and independent of the Father and Son.

In this connection, it's useful to consider the three SOP quotes below.  These quotes say that the Spirit is in fact Christ, but without the personality or cumbrances of humanity.

This implies that the Spirit took on a new function after the Incarnation.  The third quote says that it has a distinct personality, but the quotes taken together make it obvious that the Father, Son, and Spirit work in complete harmony.

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall (although unseen by you), [THIS PHRASE WAS ADDED BY ELLEN WHITE.] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" [John 14:26]. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will come not unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you" [John 16:7].  {14MR 23.3}

The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ. Only those who are thus taught of God, those who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, are to stand as representative men, to minister in behalf of the church.  {DA 805.3}

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes.  {20MR 324.2}



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Anonymous

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Source: http://www.trinitytruth.org/wasellenwhiteatrinitarian.html

1. Here is the most significant point. Ellen White frequently states that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ which is one reason why she refers to the Holy Spirit as a person. But she NEVER refers to the Holy Spirit as a BEING as she does the Father and Son. Note from these quotes how Ellen White refers to the Holy Spirit of Christ as a person with a personality. But note that it is NOT another literal being as so many Adventist Pastors and Christians frequently misunderstand.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, which is sent to all men to give them sufficiency, that through His grace we might be complete in Him. (Ellen G. White, 14MR 84.3)  The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.

We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ. If we commune with God, we shall have strength and grace and efficiency. (Ellen G. White, Lt66, April 10, 1894)  The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ by His Spirit.

but it is the leaven of the spirit of Jesus Christ, which is sent down from heaven, called the Holy Ghost, and that Spirit affects the heart and the character. (Ellen G. White, Ms36-1891)  The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.

Christ has left His Holy Spirit to be His representative in the world, to give celestial aid to every hungering, thirsting soul. (Ellen G. White, Lt84, October 22, 1895)  The Holy Spirit which is in the world with us today is Christ's Spirit and can function independently of Himself.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ; it is His representative. Here is the divine agency that carries conviction to hearts. When the power of His Spirit is revealed through the servants of God, we behold divinity flashing through humanity. (Ellen G. White, 13MR 313.3, 1895)  The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is [Christ] Himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. (Ellen G. White, Lt119, February 18, 1895)  The Holy Spirit is Christ Himself by His Spirit.

This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter. (Ellen G. White, 14MR 179.2)  The Spirit of Christ is the Comforter.

The holy Spirit is the comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul. (Ellen G. White, Review and Herald, November 29, 1892)  The Holy Spirit is the Comforter which is the personal presence of Christ in you by His Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christyet is a distinct personality. (Ellen G. White, 20MR 324.2)  The Holy Spirit is the Comforter as the person of Christ with a distinct personality.

Lift up Christ in His power in the person of the Holy Spirit. He is waiting for them to open the door and admit Him. (Ellen G. White, Lt59, March 29, 1899)  Ellen White calls Christ by His Spirit a person.

When trials overshadow the soul, remember the words of Christ, remember that He is an unseen presence in the personof the Holy Spirit, (Ellen G. White, DG 185.2, 1897)  Ellen White calls Christ by His Spirit a person.

Some may now be asking why Ellen White called the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Christ? The idea of the Holy Spirit as another BEING is the second and final part of the trinity doctrine that is a manmade doctrine from the Catholic Church which was inspired by Satan so he could achieve the worship he desires. This is the lie that most have been indoctrinated with and so when they finally hear the real truth they struggle as it is seems foreign to them despite being truth. So how can the Holy Spirit be both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ?

Because Christ inherited everything from His Father including His life. For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself. John 5:26

As Ellen White said, All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. (Ellen G. White, Desire of Ages, p. 21)

And so God gave not only His self-existent LIFE but also HIS SPIRIT as the Father gave all things to His Son.

The Father gave HIS Spirit without measure to HIS Son, (Ellen G. White, RH, November 5, 1908)

And so the Father and Son are one in Spirit and share the same Spirit.

They were two, yet little short of being identical; two in individuality, yet one in spirit, and heart, and character. (Ellen G. White, Youth's Instructor, December 16, 1897)

The Holy Spirit is therefore not another being but the very presence of God Himself coming to us through His Son.

In giving us HIS Spirit, God gives us HIMSELF, (Ellen G. White, 7T 273.1, 1902)

Source: http://www.trinitytruth.org/wasellenwhiteatrinitarian.html

 



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scf

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Sister White wrote:

 Forty-five years ago, when I began my labours, we met with some of the most erroneous doctrines.  One would say, I have the truth because my feelings tell me so.  Another would say The Spirit tells me that I have the truth.  But how were they to know that they had the right spirit.  There are two spirits in the world, the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of Antichrist.

Conditions for Obtaining Eternal Richies, June 10, 1890 Vol 2 p401

 Spirit of Christ: example

  I felt a presence in my room, as I have many times before, and I lost all recollection of what I was about.  I seemed to be in the presence of Jesus.  He was communicating to me that in which I was to be instructed Not an audible word was spoken to my ear, but to my mind.

E G White, Manuscript Release No 926, p71, 1896

Source: Who or What is the Holy Spirit?  New gods  Nader Mansour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9zdqLmO6hE

 

spirit of Antichrist: examples

 1)  About Ignatius of Loyola,He never doubted the reality of these revelations.  He chased Satan with a stick as he would have done a mad dog; he talked to the Holy Spirit as one does to another person actually

Edmond Paris, the Secret History of the Jesuits p18

Source: Who or What is the Holy Spirit?  New gods  Nader Mansour

https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9zdqLmO6hE

 

2)  Lucifer is divine and terrestrial Light, the Holy Ghost  and Satan at one and the same time.

Helena P Blavatsky, Founder of the Theosophical Society, The Secret Doctrine p539, 1888

 

Source: Who or What is the Holy Spirit?  New gods  Nader Mansour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9zdqLmO6hE

You can also watch:  

The Trinity according to Jesus - Nader Mansour       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cr05wuK_kg

Pagan Origins of the Trinity - The gods of Babylon - Nader Mansour      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IPlBlDggP8



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scf

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Explanation on Matthew 28:19 by Bill Pinto

http://www.acts321.org/assets/documents/pdfs/sermons/matthew_28_19.pdf

Matthew 28:19        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfCGB_TjaB8     Bill Pinto

Question 9 (Matthew 28:19): Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19. Why did Jesus instruct us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost if the trinity is wrong? Doesnt this verse prove that there are three persons in the Godhead? Answer: Before we answer the above verse, we would like to pose some questions for the readers contemplation: Was Jesus addressing the identity of God in that verse or discourse? Does the verse mention the word God? Does the verse tell us that God is made of three beings or persons? Does the verse tell us anything about the nature of these three? Does the verse tell us who the Holy Spirit is? Does the verse tell us that there are three names? The honest answer to the above questions is no. The verse is not dealing with who God is and does not tell us the nature of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. Yet it does confirm for us that there is a Father, there is a Son and there is a Spirit. There is no doubt about the existence of any of them. The relationship between Father and Son and Spirit is not defined in this text. To insist that it means there are three persons in the Godhead goes beyond the information provided in the passage. To define the relationship as three co-equal, co-eternal beings cannot be proved from this passage. What does the passage mean? How was it understood by those who heard Christ giving that instruction? The answer is easily found when we study the book of Acts. We find that all the baptisms recorded there were performed in the name of Jesus and not in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5). This begs the question: did the disciples misunderstand the command of Jesus? Were they wrong in baptizing people in the name of the Lord only? We do not believe so. We believe that the disciples had a better understanding of Jesus command than many do today. The reason they saw no difference between baptizing in the name of the Lord or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is as follows: The word name means authority John 5:43). When we are baptized, we are come under the authority & power of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The use of the singular name confirms this fact. We are now professing to be stamped with the authority and character of the Father, Son & Spirit. Jesus was given all power in heaven and in earth (Matt 28:18; John 5:27; John 5:43). He has the authority of the Father, has the authority of the Son (Himself) and with the correct understanding of the Holy Spirit (that it is His own Spirit, Christ Himself and not someone else), He has the authority of the Holy Spirit. Christ has this authority by virtue of His relation to the Father (being His only begotten Son). This is His divine inheritance (Hebrews 1:4). Therefore, since Jesus has the authority of the Father (His Father), the Son (Himself) and the Holy Spirit (His own Spirit), the baptisms recorded in the book of Acts (in the name of the Lord or in the authority of the Lord) are a recognition of the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; the highest 14 authority in heaven and earth. Christ is the only medium whereby we can come under that authority (John 14:6). Spirit of Prophecy: The Spirit of Prophecy has this to say about it: Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Before man can find a home in the church, before passing the threshold of God's spiritual kingdom, he is to receive the impress of the divine name, "The Lord our Righteousness." Jer. 23:6.... Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. They have obeyed the command: "Come out from among them, and be ye separate, ... and touch not the unclean thing." And to them is fulfilled the promise: "I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters." 2 Cor. 6:17, 18. {FLB 145.4} To be baptized in the threefold name means to be under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which means receiving the impress of the divine name the Lord our righteousness. We become children of the heavenly King (singular). This is why Matthew 28:19 uses the singular name rather than names. Further Biblical passages show that Matthew 28:19 is not teaching the trinity. For example, those who overcome will receive this promise: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12 The special group called the 144,000 is sealed with one name, not three: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Fathers name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1 These passages shed light on the meaning of the words of Christ in Matthew 28:19. Christ was not teaching a trinity of gods. We are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. By this we express our belief in the existence of the one true God, the mediation of his Son, and the influence of the Holy Spirit. Having answered this verse, we would like to point out that Matthew 28:19, which is widely used by trinitarians to prove the trinity, was in fact instituted by our Lord and Savior to protect the church from reaching false doctrines such as the trinity. Before we go any further, we must understand what the trinity teaches. Most trinitarians are not aware of this fact: once you believe in the trinity, you automatically deny the truth that God the Father is a real Father and Jesus is a real Son. The Trinitarian mind views these terms as merely figures, allegories and metaphors. The Father and Son are actually co-eternal divine beings without a real Father-Son relationship. We will quote a sample to demonstrate this fact: 15 A plan of salvation was encompassed in the covenant made by the Three Persons of the Godhead who possessed the attributes of Deity equally. One of the divine Beings accepted and entered into the role of the Father, another the role of the Son (Adventist Review Oct. 31, 1996 p.12, week of prayer) The FatherSon relationship in the Godhead should be understood in a metaphorical sense, not in a literal sense. Max Hatton, Understanding the Trinity, p. 97) Accordingly, a belief in the trinity is really a denial of the true Father-Son relationship. This is according to the teachers and leaders who promote this idea about God. Christs instruction in Matthew 28:19 was to safeguard His church against such notions and ideas that destroy the very fabric of the Gospel. The reason we say so is as follows: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19 Before baptizing we are commanded to teach all nations. What are we to teach them? And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16: 15, 16 According to Jesus Himself, we are to teach them the Gospel. Well what is the Gospel? We all know the best verse the summarizes the Gospel: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 When Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 teach all nations He commissioned us to teach all people that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But we saw the Trinitarian view actually denies the true Sonship of Christ and true Fatherhood of God the Father. They admitted, as quoted above, that this relationship is merely a metaphor and a roleplaying. This alone is enough to show us that believing in the trinity totally contradicts the commission that Jesus gave us in Matthew 28:19 Furthermore, if we go to Mark 16:16, we read He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned. What is it that must be believed before baptism? One story answers the questions very plainly. The Eunuch who was baptized by the Apostle Philip answered this question in Acts 8:37. (Please read the verse in context.) Philip, moved by the Spirit of God had to make sure that the Eunuch believed something with all his heart before he could baptize him: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This furnishes us with positive proof that a fundamental instruction that must precede baptism is the teaching regarding the Son of God. Jesus commissioned His followers, in order to protect His church from false beliefs, to teach all people the gospel and make sure that they believe with all their hearts the 16 fact that He is the Son of God. Dear reader, this is serious. Our Lord and Master said plainly that he that believeth not shall be damned Mark 16:16. In fact, while preaching the gospel to Nicodemus, Jesus said: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18 We deny the divine sonship of Christ when we reduce it to a mere metaphor or a role-play. Christ gave a very serious and solemn warning to all those who might be tempted to question His divine sonship. Let all take heed to the words of the Master. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:10-13: Dear reader, to deny the true relationship between the Father and the Son by calling it a metaphor, to deny the true Fatherhood of God the Father, and the true Sonship of Jesus Christ by calling it a roleplay, is considered denying the Father and the Son. This is why Jesus told His followers to teach people the truth before baptizing them. False ideas about God originate from the enemy of God: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22 The Saviour has given the promise of His presence to all who labor in the spirit of true service. "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth," He says; "go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy, Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." As you present the Word to your hearers, claim this promise of Christ's presence. There is no day, no hour of the day, when He will not be near you by His Holy Spirit. He is in every meeting that is held in His name. His promise is given for as long as time shall last. {AUCR, December 30, 1907 par. 3} 

 

http://www.acts321.org/assets/documents/pdfs/sermons/matthew_28_19.pdf

Matthew 28:19        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfCGB_TjaB8     Bill Pinto



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nb

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believe Matt 28 just as it is written in the KJV



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webmaster

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nb, Amen.

Vigilantius, That the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, is from inspired writings.  Sorry I:m not on the computer I have my SOP material on, so can:t find the quote quickly, but it reads something like+ *The person of the Holy Ghost*, and *The Holy Spirit is walking these halls*.  Agreed with what you wrote about Froom.

scf, If you believe that Lucifer/Satan is the Holy Ghost, then you are in huge danger of committing the unpardonable sin.  Beware!



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Ed Sutton

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 The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901.  {Ev 616.4}  

     Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)  {Ev 616.5}  

     The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .  {Ev 616.6}  

     The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906.  {Ev 617.1}  

     The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897)  {Ev 617.2}  

     In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905)  {Ev 617.3} 

 

 The Lord says this because He knows it is for our good. He would build a wall around us, to keep us from transgression, so that His blessing and love may be bestowed on us in rich measure. This is the reason we have established a school here. The Lord instructed us that this was the place in which we should locate, and we have had every reason to think that we are in the right place. We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, that the Lord God is our keeper, and helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind.--Ms 66, 1899, p. 4. (Talk, April 15, 1899)

Released April 28, 1976.  {7MR 299.2}  

 

    The Lord says this because He knows it is for our good. He would build a wall around us, to keep us from transgression, so that His blessing and love may be bestowed on us in rich measure. This is the reason we have established a school here. The Lord instructed us that this was the place in which we should locate, and we have had every reason to think that we are in the right place. We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, unseen by human eyes; that the Lord God is our Keeper and Helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind.  {2SAT 136.6}  

     No one will be forced into the kingdom of heaven. Those who do not wish to enter show it by their actions. It is because we want to enter this kingdom that we have established a school here, and have called for the youth to come. We desire that they should be educated and trained aright, that they may learn what they should do in order to keep the intellect unimpaired. As we look at the world we know that iniquity abounds. Very little that is of God and heaven can be seen. We desire to bring all of heaven we possibly can into our homes, into the church, into the school, and we desire that the Lord shall see in us no perversity, no stubbornness, no disobedience.  {2SAT 137.1} 

--------------------

Extracts from discourse given by Mrs. E.G. White in the Avondale Church, March 25, 1899 {Ms66-1899} 

I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God. {Ms66-1899} 

The Lord says this because He knows it is for our good. He would build a wall around us, to keep us from transgression, so that His blessing and love may be bestowed on us in rich measure. This is the reason we have established a school here. The Lord instructed us that this was the place in which we should locate, and we have had every reason to think that we are in the right place. We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, unseen by human eyes, that the Lord God is our Keeper and Helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind. {Ms66-1899} 

No one will be forced into the kingdom of heaven. Those who do not wish to enter show it by their actions. It is because we want to enter this kingdom that we have established a school here, and have called for the youth to come. We desire that they should be educated and trained aright, that they may learn what they should do in order to keep the intellect unimpaired. As we look at the world we know that iniquity abounds. Very little that is of God and heaven can be seen. We desire to bring all of heaven we possibly can into our homes, into the church, and into the school. We desire that the Lord shall see in us no perversity, no stubbornness, no disobedience. {Ms66-1899} 



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